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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on May 26, 2022 10:55:38 GMT
This thread is to discuss the Vrba plan of the Birkenau Kremas. It was briefly discussed off topic in another thread. That is a "rough ground plan" of how the Kremas were roughly laid out. The poster Nessie has argued that the image below represents the real Krema at Birkenau with some mistakes.  Layout of the crematoria in Auschwitz II-Birkenau, VrbaโWetzler reportverses the reality It is not rough it is fictitious. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 26, 2022 14:29:59 GMT
That is a "rough ground plan" of how the Kremas were roughly laid out. Nonsense, this drawing has no resemblance of how the kremas were laid out. this Layout of the crematoria in Auschwitz II-Birkenau, VrbaโWetzler report verses the reality It is not rough it is fictitious. Both have long thin gas chambers jutting out from the main building where there was an undressing room and crematorium with multiple ovens. Vrba was never inside the Kremas, so his was a "rough" plan based on what he had been told. |
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Post by Nessie on May 26, 2022 14:35:50 GMT
Vrba was never in a Krema. He drew a "rough ground plan" that had a long thin gas chamber that jutted out from a main building where an undressing room and crematorium containing multiple ovens were located.
You make the common mistake of assuming witnesses are much better at details than they are in reality.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on May 26, 2022 19:37:06 GMT
Vrba was never in a Krema. He drew a "rough ground plan" that had a long thin gas chamber that jutted out from a main building where an undressing room and crematorium containing multiple ovens were located. You make the common mistake of assuming witnesses are much better at details than they are in reality. He is reporting hearsay, attempting to turn that into fact when in fact it is fiction. The only commonality is that the rooms are rectangles.  |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 8:46:32 GMT
Vrba was indeed reporting what he had been told, so that his claims could be investigated to ascertain their accuracy.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on May 27, 2022 9:32:46 GMT
Vrba was indeed reporting what he had been told, so that his claims could be investigated to ascertain their accuracy. It seems from his plan of the Krema he was told a lot of excrement. |
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 9:55:29 GMT
Vrba claimed to have seen the krema but hadn't been inside of one. During his cross examination by Christie he first claimed the gas chamber was about 6-7 feet high and he had seen a SS trooper put the cans of Zyklon B on the roof and then climb on the roof "in a sporty manner". He then had to go through a series of verbal contortions (similar to Nessie's) of trying to explain that the gas chamber roof was nearly ground level.
Christie also had fun getting Vrba to explain how he had seen 6 meter deep pits for burning the bodies at A-B when A-B was built in a marsh and the water table was 3 feet and less. Vrba first tried claiming that the cremations took place in the winter and the ground was frozen. That blew up and Vrba was reduced to Nessie's catch-all claim, "the ever so clever but eeevul Narzis knew how to do it".
Vrba was obviously lying and it's questionable if he was ever actually in A-B.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 9:55:50 GMT
Vrba was indeed reporting what he had been told, so that his claims could be investigated to ascertain their accuracy. It seems from his plan of the Krema he was told a lot of excrement. The layout is wrong, but he clearly states it is a rough plan. The information about a gas chamber, another large room and mass ovens is correct. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 10:14:25 GMT
Vrba claimed to have seen the krema but hadn't been inside of one. During his cross examination by Christie he first claimed the gas chamber was about 6-7 feet high and he had seen a SS trooper put the cans of Zyklon B on the roof and then climb on the roof "in a sporty manner". He then had to go through a series of verbal contortions (similar to Nessie's) of trying to explain that the gas chamber roof was nearly ground level. Christie also had fun getting Vrba to explain how he had seen 6 meter deep pits for burning the bodies at A-B when A-B was built in a marsh and the water table was 3 feet and less. Vrba first tried claiming that the cremations took place in the winter and the ground was frozen. That blew up and Vrba was reduced to Nessie's catch-all claim, "the ever so clever but eeevul Narzis knew how to do it". Vrba was obviously lying and it's questionable if he was ever actually in A-B. Christie accepts he was A-B and that there were gassings.
Christie asked about Vrba's book "All the contents are true?" and Vrba replied "...this is a work of literature, and not a document....Therefore that book should not be considered as a document, but as an artistic picture of
the events."
It is yet another example of Jewish witness evidence being representative, not documentary, which does not sit well in a court, as we see from the exchanges between Christie, Vrba and the Judge. The court wants matter of fact eye witness evidence, not opinion, hearsay and emotive descriptives. As for the pits, Christie asked about the marshy ground;
Q. Mm-hmmm. Well, how do you explain the method by which the Germans could burn bodies under water in this marshy ground where the water level was about -- well, you described it as marshy ground. Tell us how they did that.
Vrba replied;
A. Well, they didn't invite me for technical consultations. And if you accept that I'm not speaking only as a witness, I saw only when it was finished...
Vrba is telling Christie that he did not know how the Nazis did it, just that he saw it was done. The cremation pits were next to Bunker II and Krema V and since buildings had been built there and there were a lot trees, it is unlikely the ground was so marshy and waterlogged, that pits could not be dug.
This just goes back to something I have been explaining to you for a long time now. Just because a witness does not know how something was done and describes the workings of something in a way that makes it appear impossible, does not therefore mean the witness is lying and what is described is physically impossible. As Vrba said, the Nazis did not give him a detailed guided tour of how they built cremation pits at Birkenau. Since there is photographic and witness evidence of those pits, since buildings were constructed on the same ground and anyone can go there now and see how marshy or not the ground is, cremation pits at Birkenau are not physically impossible.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 10:36:08 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Quote Christie saying that.
IOW, Vrba wrote a novel about A-B, a fictionalized history. Much like the movie, "Little Big Man" where the protagonist supposedly survived the battle of the Little Bighorn.
Nessie does his best to dress up his claim that "the ever so clever but eeevul Narzis knew how to get 'er done".
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 10:43:56 GMT
Nessie wrote: Quote Christie saying that. IOW, Vrba wrote a novel about A-B, a fictionalized history. Much like the movie, "Little Big Man" where the protagonist supposedly survived the battle of the Little Bighorn. Nessie does his best to dress up his claim that "the ever so clever but eeevul Narzis knew how to get 'er done". At no point in his questioning, does Christie ask Vrba is he was at A-B, meaning he has accepted before the trial started that he was there. At no point does Christie question the existence of gas chambers at the camp, meaning, again, he has accepted there were gas chambers before the trial started.
Vrba's retort to Christie was spot on, the Nazis did not give him detailed technical descriptions of how the cremated in pits, so he does not know how they were set. He just knows they existed, because he saw them. There is evidence independent of Vrba that corroborates the existence of cremation pits.
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 10:53:43 GMT
Nessie wrote:
So, Christie DIDN'T say that he accepted the gas chambers as fact. Christie made it clear that he DIDN'T believe Vrba's account of the gas chambers. Whether Christie accepted Vrba's claim of being at A-B is unknown.
Vrba's retort to Christie was spot on your claim that "the ever so clever but eeevul Narzis knew how to get 'er done".
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on May 27, 2022 10:56:17 GMT
There is evidence independent of Vrba that corroborates the existence of cremation pits. This poster likes to go in circles and derail. The independent corroboration are the "spaghetti" woman photos taken by the Birkenau propaganda group who admitted their propaganda and other cattle excrement. The photographers were all underground members. |
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 11:24:15 GMT
Nessie wrote: So, Christie DIDN'T say that he accepted the gas chambers as fact. Christie made it clear that he DIDN'T believe Vrba's account of the gas chambers. Whether Christie accepted Vrba's claim of being at A-B is unknown. It is known, since Christie did not question Vrba about whether he was at A-B. If there was evidence Vrba was not at A-B, Christie would have started with that, as it would destroy Vrba as a witness. Christie did not suggest there were no gas chambers, because again, he knows that there is evidence to prove the existence of gas chambers. What is the more credible claim? A - my claim that the Nazis had the technical and construction ability to build gas chambers and dig pits at A-B B - your claim that the Nazis did not have the technical and construction ability to build gas chambers and dig pits at A-B. |
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 11:46:56 GMT
Christie was the defending attorney at a trial. He couldn't prove that Vrba wasn't at A-B so didn't bring it up. What he thought about Vrba being at A-B is UNKNOWN. Have you been taking Hilberg's mind reading pills? Besides, Christie is dead so have you been communing mentally with his ghost? I think that Vrba's presence at A-B is QUESTIONABLE. His claim that he escaped by hiding in a woodpile and his other lies are about as believable as Wiernik's claim that a bullet bounced off him.
I think that your claim that the "ever so clever but eeevul Narzis knew how to get 'er done" is a bullsh*t excuse for the lies of the so-called witnesses.
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That is a "rough ground plan" of how the Kremas were roughly laid out. 
