Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 7:42:03 GMT
Nessie wrote: The red/pink discoloration of victims of fatal CO poisoning who have 65%+ carboxyhemoglobin levels isn't dependent on blood pooling from gravity in the lower parts of the body. Neither is it rare for victims of CO poisoning with 65%+ carboxyhemoglobin levels to present with red/pink discoloration. Equating the red/pink discoloration of fatal CO poisoning to livor mortis is asinine but Nessie is trying to excuse the alleged eyewitnesses who claimed that the cadavers presented yellow, blue and black discoloration as a result of CO poisoning. No, you may die from CO poisoning with less than a 65% level of hemoglobin in which case the red/pink discoloration may be limited to fingernails and internal organs. Red/pink discoloration isn't rare in fatal cases of CO poisoning. As shown, less than 1% of carbon monoxide poisoning results in a fatality in the U.S. At Treblinka with it's 100% fatality rate the 65%+ levels of carboxyhemoglobin and the concomitant red/pink discoloration wouldn't be rare at all. You cannot list cherry red as a symptom for severe poisoning, that will kill, because it is not a common and obvious symptom. The NHS site includes death which occurs within minutes from very severe poisoning and it only records unconsciousness, chest pain, seizures and breathing difficulties. You are confused. The body is exposed to very high levels of CO and people died in minutes. The NHS site records the symptoms they would have experienced as breathing difficulties, seizures, chest pain and unconsciousness. The second source agrees and goes on to explain that cherry red only becomes common and obvious post mortem, or after death. The cherry red comes from the "high levels of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood" which then pools due to gravity. It is the pooling of the blood that makes it obvious and the photos you linked to are of dead bodies where the blood has pooled. When the gas chamber doors were opened, the bodies just looked asleep, as witnesses said and the obvious cherry red skin, which needs the blood to pool to be obvious, does not happen as the body is moved. In any case, even not moving a body, it takes hours to form and by then the bodies were buried or cremated. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 7:52:46 GMT
Nessie, the cherry-red color is from the COHb or carboxyhemoglobin in the blood, which does not increase after death because the person is no longer breathing โ so the COHb concentration reaches a max about when the patient dies and is then never eliminated. However, if the patient does not die, the COHb levels go back to normal as the patient is removed from the source and the carbon monoxide clears from his system. I suppose the patient could still die during or even after his recovery, but that is besides the point. That the cherry-red color is so striking is why coroners describe the CO corpses that way, but emergency rooms do so less often because they have different priorities โ namely expediting treatment over forensic analysis. A&E tend to see lower level poisonings, where concentration is not high enough to turn the blood obviously cherry red and higher levels, where the person is still alive, so much of their blood is out of sight still being pumped around the body. Hence, they do not see common and obvious cherry red and do not list it as a symptom. Coroners see it because they see dead people, when that cherry red blood has stopped pumping round the body, it has pooled in the skin due to gravity and now it is common and obvious. Coroners also see bodies hours after death, when lividity has had time to forum and after the body has been moved. They do not use it as a symptom, because even in severe cases, when the patient is still alive and the blood is pumping round their body, it rare, seldom seen and not obvious. He has been exposed to chronic CO poisoning, like a source that referenced miners trapped down a mine. They have breathed low levels for a long time, time which means the blood slowly becomes cherry red as the CO breathed in raises the concentration of COHb in the blood. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 14, 2022 8:50:34 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie is desperately trying to protect the liars who claimed to have seen thousands of people killed with CO. Those so-called witnesses with their claims of yellow, blue, black, whatever colors for the cadavers are LYING about seeing any people killed with CO. An actual witness would have described the cadavers for the most part as pink or red and Nessie has to try to avoid that. He's come up with the cockamamie claim that the red/pink discoloration from high levels of carboxyhemoglobin is actually livor mortis which doesn't present until hours after the victim dies and is the result of gravity not a change in the color of the blood.
Nessie wrote:
You are either confused or, more likely, just plain lying. Breathing difficulties, chest pains etc. is caused by a lack of oxygen in the blood stream due to the formation of COHb. At high levels of COHb the body begins to present the red/pink discoloration which is usually, not always but usually fatal. What is rare is people with extremely high levels of COHb surviving the poisoning. That's why the red/pink discoloration is usually observed post mortem.
No, that lie doesn't fly, Nessie. It's stated that, "It comes from high levels of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood. Unfortunately, it is often a postmortem examination that reveals such a bright red coloring." The red/pink discoloration comes from high levels of COHb and COHb levels high enough to turn the skin pink/red is usually fatal.
Your attempt to excuse the witnesses from not reporting the correct color for people murdered with CO is a FAIL. The red/pink discoloration of the Treblinka victims would have been pronounced. It comes from the cherry red color of blood with a high level of COHb infusing the skin with the red/pink discoloration. It DOES NOT come from the action of gravity as with livor mortis.
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Post by been_there on May 14, 2022 11:49:55 GMT
๐ค๐ค Hmmmm? ๐ค๐ค
So none of the survivors or alleged perpetrators noticed any bright pink corpses!
Not at any time in the alleged mass-murder process
and later treatment of the alleged gassed corpses?!
๐คช
Errr... and remind me, which side of the debate are called deniers, again? ๐
Objective: We present a case of CO suicide of a twenty-six-year-old man.
Methods: Autopsy was performed to evaluate the circumstances, cause and medio-legal death etiology.
Results: Autopsy evidenced the typical but also not commonly published cherry-red colour
of the hypostasis, lungs and other organs, and the very fluid cherry-red blood.
The cause of death was due to a massive CO inhalation.
In the above case, a young man committed suicide by inhaling CO from the exhaust fumes of a motor vehicle. A twenty-six-years-old man committed suicide by CO inhalation. Family members reported that when they woke up the car was parked in the garage with the engine turned on and the victim inside. The car was locked and garden hose was inserted in the car exhaust, which was sealed with a t-shirt. The other end of the hose was inserted through the window at the passenger side of the car. The hose was removed from the car exhaust and the family broke the window through which the hose was inserted. Then, the vehicle was opened and the victim was already dead. The autopsy was performed 9 hours after death. The cadaveric stiffness was already complete, and the cherry-red hypostasis fixed on the dorsum and extremity of the lower limbs. Normal lividity (or livor mortis or hypostases) is blue-purplish due to venous blood colour... In CO poisoning, lividity can exhibit a cherry-red or bright- pink colour in Caucasians due to COHb formation. In racially pigmented victims, especially Negroid, the discolouration may be masked, but may still be seen and is prominent in the conjunctivae, nailbeds, tongue and mucosa of the lips, and palms and soles of the hands and feet. It should be mentioned that the classical cherry-red colour of COHb is usually evident if the saturation of the blood exceeds about 40% and below these levels, poisonings are rarely fatal. In anemic victims with lower Hb blood concentrations, the colour may be faint or even absent because insufficient Hb is present to display the colour and death can occur at lower COHb percentages. The same is true for infants since the higher respiration rate in comparison to adults, allows more rapid absorption. Finally, as the major effect is the impairment of O2 transport to cells, it is the percentage saturation of the total available Hb that is important rather than an absolute concentration of COHb in the blood [16]. www.researchgate.net/publication/338412462_BENTHAM_SCIENCE_Send_Orders_for_Reprints_to_reprintsbenthamsciencenet_Suicide_by_Inhalation_of_Carbon_Monoxide_of_Car_Exhausts_Fumes#pf2 |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 14:44:32 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie is desperately trying to protect the liars who claimed to have seen thousands of people killed with CO. Those so-called witnesses with their claims of yellow, blue, black, whatever colors for the cadavers are LYING about seeing any people killed with CO. An actual witness would have described the cadavers for the most part as pink or red and Nessie has to try to avoid that. He's come up with the cockamamie claim that the red/pink discoloration from high levels of carboxyhemoglobin is actually livor mortis which doesn't present until hours after the victim dies and is the result of gravity not a change in the color of the blood. I have provided evidence from the NHS that cherry red is not a symptom for fatal gassings and you agreed with and quoted evidence it appears post mortem!!! Then produce medical evidence that fatal levels of CO will cause the majority of people to turn obviously cherry red before death and explain why the NHS contradicts you, by not listing it as a symptom for fatal levels of exposure. Post mortem examinations take place hours, if not days after death, by which time lividity has formed. That is why the cherry red is now obvious. You posted a link to photos which show where the blood has pooled in the skin after death. How can you see into a body, to see the colour of the blood? The answer is you cannot, you can only see the affect the blood has on the skin when it is in the capillaries in the skin. The photos of dead bodies show how the blood pools in the skin and that makes the colour of the blood obvious. Those photos are of bodies hours after death. The bodies coming out of the gas chambers still had most of their blood inside the body, which you cannot see. The cherry redness of the blood does not become obvious until the blood has started to pool, which it cannot do, as the bodies were moved and then buried or cremated. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 14:59:19 GMT
๐ค๐ค Hmmmm? ๐ค๐ค
So none of the survivors or alleged perpetrators noticed any bright pink corpses!
Not at any time in the alleged mass-murder process
and later treatment of the alleged gassed corpses?!
๐คช
Errr... and remind me, which side of the debate are called deniers, again? ๐
You have conflated chronic with acute exposure. There is evidence prolonged exposure for hours or days will turn the skin cherry red, but those in the gas chambers were exposed to acute very high levels and died in minutes. The photos are of bodies hours after death, by which time lividity has pooled, which is why the bodies have been rolled onto their side, so it is easier to see the cherry red skin. The gassed were removed from the chambers within minutes of death, that movement preventing lividity forming and the bodies were buried or cremated long before lividity had time to form. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 15:06:21 GMT
From the source been-there used; www.researchgate.net/publication/338412462_BENTHAM_SCIENCE_Send_Orders_for_Reprints_to_reprintsbenthamsciencenet_Suicide_by_Inhalation_of_Carbon_Monoxide_of_Car_Exhausts_Fumes#pf2"The autopsy was performed 9 hours after death. The ca- daveric stiffness was already complete, and the cherry-red hypostasis fixed on the dorsum and extremity of the lower limbs" "Normal lividity (or livor mortis or hypostases) is blue-purplish due to venous blood color but this is highly dependent upon the state of oxygenation at about the time of death. In CO poisoning, lividity can exhibit a cherry-red or bright-pink color in Caucasians due to COHb formation." If the body was already cherry red before, why is that source on a postmortem of a person who died from CO poisoning referring to cherry red hypostasis, lividity and livor motis (which all mean the same thing, the pooling of the blood after death)? That source is clear the cherry red is due to lividity, which means it was not obviously present before lividity formed, because lividity cannot form when someone is still alive. |
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Post by been_there on May 14, 2022 16:08:17 GMT
Cherry-red colouring of still-living people suffering from CO poisoning is not always prevalent.
Which is why it is not given as an early sign.
See article below.
The relevance to accurately and honestly evaluating the reliability and credibility of holocaust witness testimony is whether the pink skin colouring would be noticeable in dead victims of CO poisoning.
As usual such a simple distinction is avoided and obfuscated by Nessie.
Here is a rather pedantic letter to The Lancet arguing about the intensity of the pink discolourisation that can be expected in people still alive:
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 16:16:36 GMT
Cherry-red colouring of still- living people suffering from CO poisoning is not always prevalent. Which is why it is not given as an early sign. See article below.The relevance to accurately and honestly evaluating the reliability and credibility of holocaust witness testimony is whether the pink skin colouring would be noticeable in dead victims of CO poisoning. As usual such a simple distinction is avoided and obfuscated by Nessie. Wrong. I have made it clear with the evidence, and you have just in part agreed with me, that when still alive, cherry red skin is not obvious and common, which is also the subject of the below article. The evidence from the NHS and other sources, is that even when exposure is to very high levels that will kill, cherry red skin is not a common and obvious symptom. Where levels are so high that they will kill in a few minutes, the symptoms that are commonly listed are unconsciousness, seizures and heart attack, not cherry red skin. |
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Post by been_there on May 14, 2022 16:31:09 GMT
The following demonstrates the denial mindset that is being demonstrated here, by this perverse refusal to accept correction on basic biology, arithmetic or whatever other facts refutes the holocaust hoax of mass-gassings: The above demonstrates that living victims of CO poisoning do turn increasingly pink, the higher the CO content in their blood. It also is proof that displays of bright red colouring, CAN and does occur in the living victim of CO poisoning! โ...the level of carbon monoxide in the blood required to get the skin to that colour is so high that it is nearly always fatalโ. That sentence IS PROOF that it is not ALWAYS fatal! Consequently, if victims can turn bright pink while still living, it is safe to assume the likelihood of many victims being bright pink immediately after asphyxiating from engine exhaust at alleged holocaust extermination camps! Yet no holocaust lie-witness noticed any! Proof they lied and the mass-gassing allegation is an anti-German, atrocity-propaganda psy-op!  |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 16:48:16 GMT
The following demonstrates the denial mindset that is being demonstrated here, by this perverse refusal to accept correction on basic biology, arithmetic or whatever other facts refutes the holocaust hoax of mass-gassings: The above demonstrates that living victims of CO poisoning do turn increasingly pink, the higher the CO content in their blood. It also is proof that displays of bright red colouring, CAN and does occur in the living victim of CO poisoning! โ...the level of carbon monoxide in the blood required to get the skin to that colour is so high that it is nearly always fatalโ. That sentence IS PROOF that it is not ALWAYS fatal! Consequently, if victims can turn bright pink while still living, it is safe to assume the likelihood of many victims being bright pink immediately after asphyxiating from engine exhaust at alleged holocaust extermination camps! Yet no holocaust lie-witness noticed any! Proof they lied and the mass-gassing allegation is an anti-German, atrocity-propaganda psy-op! That source agrees with me!!!!
It makes it clear that it's appearance is "often" (definition, frequent, many times, in many instances) postmortem. Which means it rarely appears before death. I have never argued that cherry red skin never appears before or at time of death, I have merely argued, supported by sources like the one you are using, that it is not common and obvious. It only becomes common and obvious POSTMORTEM and I have shown the medical evidence that is because of lividity.
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Post by been_there on May 14, 2022 17:04:02 GMT
The following demonstrates the denial mindset that is being demonstrated here, by this perverse refusal to accept correction on basic biology, arithmetic or whatever other facts refutes the holocaust hoax of mass-gassings: The above demonstrates that living victims of CO poisoning do turn increasingly pink, the higher the CO content in their blood. It also is proof that displays of bright red colouring, CAN and does occur in the living victim of CO poisoning! โ...the level of carbon monoxide in the blood required to get the skin to that colour is so high that it is nearly always fatalโ. That sentence IS PROOF that it is not ALWAYS fatal! Consequently, if victims can turn bright pink while still living, it is safe to assume the likelihood of many victims being bright pink immediately after asphyxiating from engine exhaust at alleged holocaust extermination camps! Yet no holocaust lie-witness noticed any! Proof they lied and the mass-gassing allegation is an anti-German, atrocity-propaganda psy-op! That source agrees with me!!!! It makes it clear that it's appearance is "often" (definition: frequent, many times, in many instances) postmortem. Which means it rarely appears before death. I have never argued that cherry red skin never appears before or at time of death, I have merely argued, supported by sources like the one you are using, that it is not common and obvious. It only becomes common and obvious POSTMORTEM and I have shown the medical evidence that is because of lividity. Ha ha! ๐ So now โoftenโ means โrarelyโ. Oh boy! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ Nessie: โ...Show me a medical source that lists cherry red skin as a symptom of exposure to fatal levels of CO, such that at time of death, the person is obviously cherry red.โI just did above and you DENIED it. Nessie: โWhich means that the bodies had been removed from the gas chambers and buried or cremated before livor mortis (aka lividity) had time to form and become obvious.โThat is DENIAL that people CAN be cherry red BEFORE death. That is DENIAL that people immediately after CO asphyxiation (before lividity) can be cherry-red. That is DENIAL! You're in denial, Nessie. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 14, 2022 18:33:05 GMT
..... Nessie: โ...Show me a medical source that lists cherry red skin as a symptom of exposure to fatal levels of CO, such that at time of death, the person is obviously cherry red.โI just did above and you DENIED it. Nessie: โWhich means that the bodies had been removed from the gas chambers and buried or cremated before livor mortis (aka lividity) had time to form and become obvious.โThat is DENIAL that people CAN be cherry red BEFORE death. That is DENIAL that people immediately after CO asphyxiation (before lividity) can be cherry-red. That is DENIAL! You're in denial, Nessie. Here is the source; www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-symptoms-4161052According to you, cherry red skin is common and obvious in very high levels of CO poisoning, that will kill. The source states " Progressed Symptoms As carbon monoxide poisoning progresses, symptoms get more serious, but are still extremely vague and difficult to identify as specific to carbon monoxide exposure: Confusion Shortness of breath Chest pain Vomiting Blurry or double vision Loss of consciousness" That is similar to other sources, such as the NHS, which does not mention cherry red skin as a symptom at all. The obvious reason for that is that it is rare and not obvious. The source you use confirms that " Rare Symptoms A deep red, flushed skin color (cherry red) is the one telltale indicator of carbon monoxide poisoning." Rare is the opposite of common. Rare means "an event that does not occur very often". The source has made it clear, for severe cases of high exposure, cherry red is rare and hence it not in the list of symptoms along with loss of consciousness, chest pain and shortness of breath. It may occur occasionally, but the source you posted here; www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)79807-X/fulltextmakes it clear that even medical professions can struggle to correctly identify it and many were ignorant of how rare it is. If it is not clear for doctors, how would it be clear to traumatised people clearing gas chambers of bodies? The first source goes on to explain, "it is often a postmortem examination that reveals such a bright red coloring". Postmortems take place hours, if not days after death. It is "often" meaning common, frequent, that at postmortems the cherry red can be seen then. Before death; rare, after death; common. The cause? Lividity. To be obvious, the blood needs to pool in the skin. That takes hours and cannot happen if the body is moved. |
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Post by been_there on May 14, 2022 18:45:02 GMT
..... Nessie: โ...Show me a medical source that lists cherry red skin as a symptom of exposure to fatal levels of CO, such that at time of death, the person is obviously cherry red.โI just did above and you DENIED it. Nessie: โWhich means that the bodies had been removed from the gas chambers and buried or cremated before livor mortis (aka lividity) had time to form and become obvious.โThat is DENIAL that people CAN be cherry red BEFORE death. That is DENIAL that people immediately after CO asphyxiation (before lividity) can be cherry-red. That is DENIAL! You're in denial, Nessie. According to you, cherry red skin is common and obvious in very high levels of CO poisoning, that will kill. No, I never wrote that. You are lying again to avoid error. You are again arguing against your own Strawman distortion. It is dishonest behaviour and so obvious I suggest it implies some form of mental impairment. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on May 14, 2022 18:45:08 GMT
It is not the cherry red colour that has interest but the other hues of green, yellow, blue and black that were reported.
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