Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 20, 2022 13:52:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie shrieks, "Stop lying" and then promptly proceeds to lie about the train records at such camps as Majdanek. There are NO train records at Majdanek of deportees arriving there from Treblinka. There are records of deportees arriving at Majdanek but no records for the trains that transported them. Just the record for the number of deportees arriving, departing, dying; the disposition of deportees but NO train records. Nessie is trying to weasel dodge that fact by claiming that, "records" exist at Majdanek. How do you know that those details were not from a train record? What difference does it make what form a record of people moving from one camp to another is? The train records from TII itself no longer exist. We do not know what records are elsewhere, which record arrivals from TII. It is a proposal I was willing to entertain, until I saw the lack of evidence to support the proposal. Considering the evidence that already exists to prove TII was a death camp, there is no way you would believe any evidence, from any source, that also evidenced it was a death camp. It is rational to not believe hundreds of thousands of people left TII, when there is no evidence that happened. Your suggestion someone hid or destroyed all the evidence, is conspiracy theorist clap trap. It would be impossible to get c850,000 Jews to agree to play dead, dozens of Nazis to agree to lie TII was a death camp, to hide or destroy all the evidence it was a transit camp and to fake all the evidence it was a death camp. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 20, 2022 14:46:49 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Well, hallelujah, Nessie admits that the records of outbound trains from Treblinka no longer exist. (except for shuttle service trains) So, since the number of trains leaving Treblinka is unknown then the number of deportees who may have left on those trains is also unknown. It IS known that some trains left Treblinka with passengers. Is it possible that only the witnesses who testified in Hunt's video and the deportees mentioned by them were the only deportees who left Treblinka alive? Yep, that's a possibility. Did all of the deportees who were sent to Treblinka leave excepting the ones who died enroute to Treblinka or while they were at Treblinka? Yep, that's also a possibility.
But there IS not only evidence but proof that thousands of deportees did leave Treblinka via rail. As you've just admitted, it's possible that any number of deportees left Treblinka up to all of the deportees who didn't die in transit or at the camp.
(sigh) I've never said that it's known that the Soviets or anyone else destroyed or hid the train records. I've always tried to be careful to say that train records could have been destroyed, hidden or, through happenstance, just plain lost. In any event, the train records either no longer exist or are not available for viewing. Whether that's by design or happenstance is irrelevant. That's not a conspiracy theory.
Really? In that case why didn't the thousands of deportees from Treblinka mentioned by the witnesses in Hunt's video come forward with their stories about being sent to Treblinka, staying for a short period of time and then being transported to alternate destinations? It seems likely that, like the witnesses in Hunt's video, they believed the rumor that Treblinka was a death camp and they were just one of the lucky few who weren't shot or gassed
It wouldn't be difficult at all to get the Germans to "confess" to whatever when faced with lengthy prison sentences or, in the case of the Nuremberg style tribunals, a death sentence.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 20, 2022 15:09:53 GMT
Nessie wrote: Well, hallelujah, Nessie admits that the records of outbound trains from Treblinka no longer exist. I admitted that ages ago. Whats wrong with you? You will likely accuse me again at some point of not admitting to that. Been-there likes to suggest I need to see a doctor. You seriously need to consider doing that, because your memory is so bad. I have been trying to explain that to you as well. There is a KNOWN number of trains and people that left TII, due to the witness evidence and some records at Majdanek. It is up to 40 trains and between 6,500 and 9000 people. There is also an UNKNOWN, which is there may have been other trains we do not know about. I have not just admitted that. I have been explaining to you for some time. There is evidence to prove hundreds of thousands died at TII. There is evidence to prove a few thousand left. I am open to evidence that the hundreds of thousands who died is not as high as 735,000 plus and that more than 6,500 to 9,000 left the camp. But, at the moment, there is no evidence that far more left TII than previously thought. When something is not evidenced, I go with it did not happen. It is when you also allege no mass gassings and everyone who worked at TII is a liar, either cooperating with the lie, or being forced to lie along with the hundreds of thousands you say left the camp, who have lied by omission, by not coming forward to tell the truth. According to you, at least 735,000 people were processed through TII, in which case it would be easy to find someone who would say what did happen, if it was not gassings. You try to use people as witnesses TII was a transit camp, who think it was a death camp. The majority were tried in Germany, by sympathetic Germans, with no chance of the death penalty and got light sentences. Then there were the ones who were in South America. Why did none of them say what really happened, from that place of safety? |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 20, 2022 17:23:19 GMT
Nessie wrote: So I forgot (shrug). Why did you make such a big deal of it? I don't need a doctor to tell me I'm absent minded. Been that way my entire life but don't know of any cure for it. I can remember vast amounts of trivia and general knowledge but can let the pot on the stove boil dry before remembering to turn the heat down. There are train records at Majdanek of trains that left Treblinka with Majdanek as their destinations? Let's have a link to that and not just a link to the book but at least the chapter. Chapter and page would be better but I'll settle for the chapter number. There is an UNKNOWN number of trains (other than the shuttle trains) that left Treblinka either with or without passengers. The number of people who left Treblinka via rail is therefore UNKNOWN. What the hell does that have to do with your claim that I said that the train records from Treblinka were deliberately destroyed or hidden?
What the hell are you on about? I SAID that thousands of deportees traveled through Treblinka with the 20 or so who testified in Hunt's video but none of them came forward with their stories of transiting through Treblinka. Why are you nattering on about 735,000 or whatever? The 400+ who were sentenced to death and the 350+ who were actually executed by the Nuremberg style tribunals didn't get light sentences. The ones prosecuted in the 60s trials no doubt got light sentences in return for their "confessions". Except for Stangl, that is but somebody had to get hammered. His appeal was going well until he suddenly died.
There were German expatriates who denied the atrocity tales. Mengele for a start but why would Germans be willing to go back to Germany to face either execution after the war or a prison sentence from a German court? Then how do you know that the German expatriates didn't repudiate the claims against them? The BBC or CNN didn't report it?
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Post by Nessie on Jul 21, 2022 8:48:05 GMT
Nessie wrote: So I forgot (shrug). Why did you make such a big deal of it? I don't need a doctor to tell me I'm absent minded. Been that way my entire life but don't know of any cure for it. I can remember vast amounts of trivia and general knowledge but can let the pot on the stove boil dry before remembering to turn the heat down. You need to keep notes to help you remember past replies. That I have to constant remind you, makes for a very slow, difficult, repetitive debate. I have already done that on numerous occasions, linking to the entries in Mattogno's book on Majdanek. It does not say if they are train records, or what type of record it is. Majdanek camp records would keep details of arrivals. The information reported is date of arrival, where they came from, number who arrived and what sex they were. it may not record details of what train they arrived on. You are wrong. We have some evidence, so the number of trains and how many left, is in part known and in part unknown. The evidence is that the vast majority of trains left empty to go back to the ghettos and a few trains left carrying a few thousand passengers to labour camps in Poland. There is no evidence at all, of empty trains arriving and taking away hundreds of thosands of people to unknown destinations. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 21, 2022 16:06:09 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Really? If that's the case why did it take you endless pages of posts before making the simple statement, "The records for trains leaving Treblinka no longer exist"?
IOW, the records for trains outbound from Treblinka no longer exist. Nessie blows voluminous smoke and horse frocky to try and obscure that.
The number of trains outbound from Treblinka is UNKNOWN. Therefore the number of deportees who may have been passengers on those trains is UNKNOWN. It is KNOWN that some trains left Treblinka with passengers. Nessie attempts to blow more smoke and horse frocky.
Your faith in Wikipedia as an unimpeachable source of information is touching but not shared by most rational people. Wiki shows nine (9) fahrplanaordnungs for trains returning empty to various cities in Poland to collect Jews. The rest of their "timeline" they pull out of their hat. If you have any real information about how many trains were on shuttle duty then let's see it. That is, anything besides Wikipedia.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 21, 2022 16:21:04 GMT
Nessie wrote: Really? If that's the case why did it take you endless pages of posts before making the simple statement, "The records for trains leaving Treblinka no longer exist"? It didn't take endless pages, I accepted that TII camp records had been destroyed from the very start. I then pointed out that TII camp records are not the only source for documents pertaining to TII. The ghettos kept records of transports to TII. Majdanek has records of arrivals from TII. It is the TII camp documents that no longer exists, which is part of the Nazi's cover up. I am not trying to obscure anything. The lack of any documents from TII itself is evidence of the cover up, as the Nazis did all they could to obscure what happened there. I also repeatedly pointed out that the lack of records of hundreds of thousands leaving TII on trains is because that did not happen. You think it is evidence of a conspiracy, where the Nazis, for a reason you cannot explain, destroyed records that would have proved they did not kill hundreds of thousands of people. No, I have merely pointed out that it is not entirely unknown, as we do know about transports of people from TII. The problem you dodge is that those transports were to labour camps in Poland, which were west or south of TII, so that is not evidence of resettlement in the east. In the OP, I found two had been posted by Wiki, and one by a site "History of Sorts". I also posted Deathcamp.org as a source for the Ganzenmuller Letter, about transports to TII, Belzec and Sobibor. I see you are still unable to provide any evidence that hundreds of thousands were transported back out of TII, so your tactic is to try and think up reasons to excuse that and to believe in what is not evidenced to have happened. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 21, 2022 17:29:15 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Here is the reply from Wolff to Ganzenmueller. Taken from CODOH:
So, that's for trains on the Warsaw shuttle and for one other Polish ghetto. How many trains were engaged in the Warsaw ghetto shuttle? Warsaw was about 60 miles from Treblinka so the turnaround time isn't a major consideration. Two or three trains could provide daily service.
We have from Wolff:
Is "population transfer" supposed to be code words for, "Gas and bury them"?
(sigh) There's proof that thousands, 15,000 or so, were transported out of Treblinka. That's proven, not evidenced. If the Germans were guilty of destroying the train records, why would they leave the shuttle train records and destroy the records that could mislead people into believing that they hadn't actually murdered hundreds of thousands? Why destroy the 20 or so train records that showed deportees being part of a "population transfer"? Your thesis that the Germans destroyed their own records doesn't make any sense.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 21, 2022 18:18:38 GMT
Nessie wrote: Here is the reply from Wolff to Ganzenmueller. Taken from CODOH: So, that's for trains on the Warsaw shuttle and for one other Polish ghetto. How many trains were engaged in the Warsaw ghetto shuttle? Warsaw was about 60 miles from Treblinka so the turnaround time isn't a major consideration. Two or three trains could provide daily service. That is further evidence of the Warsaw ghetto being emptied to TII. That is c245,000 Jews sent to TII on trains that returned empty, mostly between July and September 1942. That accounts of about a third of all the people and trains that went to TII. There is no evidence from any source, that any of them left the camp. No, it is because he was lied to and thought that is what was happening. There is evidence 6,500 to 9,000 left, but some of that evidence is disputed. There is only proof a few thousand, left. So, Mr Conspiracy Theorist, who did destroy all the TII camp records? |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 21, 2022 20:37:10 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That's not proof that 860,000 (or 900,000 or 1.2 million) were sent to Treblinka. As I said, three trains on shuttle duty could have transported all the Jews of Warsaw to Treblinka quite easily.
There is proof that deportees left Treblinka. There's the witness statements corroborated by records at Majdanek and the USHMM. There's no proof that any of the deportees from Warsaw left Treblinka but neither is there any proof that they were gassed and buried.
Who lied to Wolff? How do you know that? Got any witnesses or documents to back up that claim?
There is proof that at least three trainloads of deportees left Treblinka plus other smaller transports. You are the one who disputes that Sam Kulawy and apparently someone else wasn't in Treblinka. That's just your opinion.
I haven't claimed there was a conspiracy to destroy the train records. I said that they could have been destroyed, hidden or lost. The fact remains that the train records are unavailable for whatever reason and that's not a "conspiracy theory".
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Post by Nessie on Jul 22, 2022 7:44:19 GMT
Nessie wrote: That's not proof that 860,000 (or 900,000 or 1.2 million) were sent to Treblinka. As I said, three trains on shuttle duty could have transported all the Jews of Warsaw to Treblinka quite easily. There is proof that deportees left Treblinka. There's the witness statements corroborated by records at Majdanek and the USHMM. There's no proof that any of the deportees from Warsaw left Treblinka but neither is there any proof that they were gassed and buried. You are lying again. There is no evidence, from any source whatsoever, that the Warsaw Jews left TII. There is evidence from witnesses, supported by documents, camp site examinations and circumstances that as part of AR, they were gassed, buried and all their property was taken to Lublin. No, but he was not part of AR, so it was usual for those not part of the operation, such as Korherr, to be kept out of what was happening. Remember Korherr said he was told all the Jews were being resettled in the Lublin district. It is not my opinion that there is no evidence they were at TII and only thought so when asked, years later, about their experience. We have at least partial records of every other transport, from transports to TII and transports arriving from TII at Majdanek. Kulawy's transport to A-B is recorded as an arrival there, where I point out to you that it came from Malkinia, not TII. It is a conspiracy to claim that someone went through all the records to only destroy the records of the empty trains that arrived at TII which you claim then took away c840,000 people not gassed, to unknown destinations. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 22, 2022 9:23:49 GMT
Nessie wrote:
You are weasel dodging again. There's no proof that anyone was deliberately killed with poison gas at Treblinka. There IS proof that some deportees left Treblinka via rail.
IOW, you're just making a supposition. Koherr was told that the Jews were relocated to the Lublin district. Jews WERE relocated to the Lublin district. Why is that a lie?
Kulawy said that he was at Treblinka. If you are going to contradict him, you need proof of your claim. Not suppositions or suspicions but some proof. Let's see that proof, Nessie.
Malkinia was a rail junction only a few kilometers from Treblinka. The train to A-B could have been made up in Malkinia. Without any definitive train schedules that's proof of nothing
The number of trains that entered and left Treblinka either with or without passengers is UNKNOWN. How many times do you have to be told that? What can't you understand about the simple statement, "The train records are gone (except for some of the shuttle trains) so the number of trains that entered and left Treblinka is UNKNOWN". Is there something about the word UNKNOWN that you fail to grasp?
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Post by Nessie on Jul 22, 2022 14:20:04 GMT
Nessie wrote: You are weasel dodging again. There's no proof that anyone was deliberately killed with poison gas at Treblinka. There IS proof that some deportees left Treblinka via rail. You are lying again, there is evidence to prove both. Evidence 735,000 Jews being resettled from TII in the Lublin district. Like you, I cannot access his statement. You have no proof he was inside TII and I have pointed out that when he said he went to A-B, I checked and transports to A-B came from Malkinia, nearby to TII. So, it is easy to see how he got mixed up about what places he was at. It is evidence to show he got his places mixed up. He said the train was a full transport, which again suggests he went via Malkinia, where trains did stop and spend time, Wiernik spent the night there, not TII. We KNOW a lot about the movements of trains and people to and from TII. The only form of movement that is not evidenced in any way, by documents or witnesses, is your claim hundreds of thousands left on trains that arrived empty from unknown places and left for unknown destinations. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 22, 2022 20:04:05 GMT
Nessie wrote:
There is proof that deportees did leave Treblinka for other destinations. There is NO unequivocal proof that the remainder were gassed and cremated. In another thread you have admitted that 725,000 weren't gassed and buried at Treblinka. Your claim that cremation is an exothermic process is laughable. NOBODY has proven that Treblinka was an extermination facility.
There's no proof that all of the Jews from Treblinka were relocated to the Lublin district. There IS proof that approximately 15,000 Jews were relocated to the Lublin district. There is NO proof that any Jews were gassed and cremated at Treblinka. You have NO proof that someone lied to Wolff and Koherr about the disposition of the Jews.
Malkinia was a main rail junction located just a few kilometers from Treblinka. Kulawy said that an entire trainload of men, women and children were sent to A-B. Only 20 cars were claimed to have been able to enter Treblinka at one time. Switch engines most likely made up the train at Malkinia. Claiming that as proof that Kulawy wasn't in Treblinka is nonsense.
Kulawy said that he was in Treblinka. You need more than some "evidence" that he was mistaken. You need some unequivocal proof and you don't have that.
You have fahrplanaordnungs for nine (9) trains on shuttle duty. There is the Ganzenmueller letter and the letter from Wolff showing that Jews were transferred from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka. Three trains could have accomplished that task quite easily. How many trains entered and left Treblinka either with or without passengers is UNKNOWN. No matter how many times Nessie is told that he refuses to acknowledge it as true statement. He has acknowledged that the train records for Treblinka are gone; destroyed, hidden or lost but not available. He then immediately begins claiming to know that no empty trains arrived at Treblinka to transport Jews to alternate destinations. How he knows that is a mystery but there it is.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 23, 2022 8:42:21 GMT
Nessie wrote: There is proof that deportees did leave Treblinka for other destinations. There is NO unequivocal proof that the remainder were gassed and cremated.... Proof comes from evidence. It is unusual for just one piece of evidence to prove something, it is best to have multiple independent sources of evidence to prove something. The evidence that deportees left TII comes from the deportees themselves, Jews, who are normally regarded as totally untrustworthy by deniers. There is no evidence from those who worked inside TII and minimal reference of people leaving the camp from Polish rail workers, who are also regarded as untrustworthy by deniers. There is a secondary source of records at Majdanek of arrivals from TII. In this case, you regard evidence from witnesses you do not trust and a secondary source as sufficient to prove deportees left TII. Do you accept that the same standard of evidence will prove gassings? |
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