Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 14:30:18 GMT
Nessie wrote: So, which "what if" are you going for? "What if" the train completed the shunting, the unloading of passengers and the cleaning of the railcars in 2 hours and 40 minutes or will it be the Treblinka train just did a drop and pick at the loop site? The evidence is mass transports went from the ghettos to TII, the AR camp on the spur line. You are discussing that evidence, because you have no evidence something else happened.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 16, 2022 15:23:29 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I am discussing archived documents that detail the mass transfers of populations in Europe during the period of 1939-1945. You are expressing your belief in a conventional narrative.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 15:50:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: I am discussing archived documents that detail the mass transfers of populations in Europe during the period of 1939-1945. You are expressing your belief in a conventional narrative. I believe a narrative that is evidenced, you don't. To try and justify your belief, you attack the evidence I have, as if somehow me not having evidence is unacceptable, but it is fine for you to have no evidence!
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 16, 2022 17:05:06 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Two fahrplanaordnungs that state that the trains left Malkinia and arrived at Treblinka seven minutes later proves that Treblinka II of the conventional narrative wasn't the Treblinka referred to by the fahrplanaordnungs.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 17:19:54 GMT
Nessie wrote: Two fahrplanaordnungs that state that the trains left Malkinia and arrived at Treblinka seven minutes later proves that Treblinka II of the conventional narrative wasn't the Treblinka referred to by the fahrplanaordnungs. Where did those trains go?
Where was 7 minutes from Malkinia that could accommodate, and/or process so many people?
Why are there no witnesses to your claim?
My theory of it was the time taken to get to where the trains were being shunted into TII is backed by witness evidence.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 16, 2022 17:42:35 GMT
So, Nessie, are you claiming that two, count 'em two fahrplanaordnungs stated that Treblinka took seven minutes to reach from Malkinia was either a mistake or a lie.
Where are your train records for trains entering and leaving Treblinka II?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 18:42:58 GMT
So, Nessie, are you claiming that two, count 'em two fahrplanaordnungs stated that Treblinka took seven minutes to reach from Malkinia was either a mistake or a lie. No. Yet again you are lying. You know neither is my claim. My claim is that it is the time of arrival at the place the shunting started. You have seen my evidence, where is yours?
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 16, 2022 20:55:13 GMT
Where was 7 minutes from Malkinia that could accommodate, and/or process so many people? Why are there no witnesses to your claim? My theory of it was the time taken to get to where the trains were being shunted into TII is backed by witness evidence. The witnesses clearly say that the current TII shunting took place at the Treblinka railway siding next to the Treblinka station. There is no doubt that transports arrived at this camp as it was a judenlager. This is not the camp as the 3 fahrplanaordnung documents; it is impossible for a train with 60 wagons to make that journey 4.6km in 7 mins. The camp most likely is the Malkinia transit camp which would be referred to as Treblinka. This is most likely the Malkinia loop some 1.5 km away from the Malkinia station. Here are reports of people being sent from the Malkinia transit camp to Auschwitz for extermination, which is rather odd considering there was an extermination camp apparently down the road. Then there is the Hirtreiter trial where: It was the judiciary that decided Hirtreiter was at another location to suit their purposes. In his article "The Treblinka Holocaust", originally published in 1994, Arnulf Neumaier writes: Yitzhak Arad writes that
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 16, 2022 21:19:05 GMT
decided Hirtreiter was at another location to suit their purposes. In his article "The Treblinka Holocaust", originally published in 1994, Arnulf Neumaier writes: I will add to my own article this critical piece of information. 3.7 miles is 5.9 km. The location 5.9km north of Treblinka is the Malkinia loop. A few metres to the right of the yellow line is the location of the trapezoid Malkinia transit camp, now covered in scrub 607 000 sq ft is 13 acres which this site is..
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 17, 2022 7:56:52 GMT
Where was 7 minutes from Malkinia that could accommodate, and/or process so many people? Why are there no witnesses to your claim? My theory of it was the time taken to get to where the trains were being shunted into TII is backed by witness evidence. The witnesses clearly say that the current TII shunting took place at the Treblinka railway siding next to the Treblinka station. There is no doubt that transports arrived at this camp as it was a judenlager. This is not the camp as the 3 fahrplanaordnung documents; it is impossible for a train with 60 wagons to make that journey 4.6km in 7 mins. The camp most likely is the Malkinia transit camp which would be referred to as Treblinka. This is most likely the Malkinia loop some 1.5 km away from the Malkinia station. Here are reports of people being sent from the Malkinia transit camp to Auschwitz for extermination, which is rather odd considering there was an extermination camp apparently down the road. Then there is the Hirtreiter trial where: It was the judiciary that decided Hirtreiter was at another location to suit their purposes. In his article "The Treblinka Holocaust", originally published in 1994, Arnulf Neumaier writes: Yitzhak Arad writes that Weirnik said;
"Amidst untold torture, we finally reached Malkinia, where our train remained for the night. The Ukrainian guards came into our car and demanded our valuables. Everyone who had any surrendered them just to gain a little longer lease on life. Unfortunately, I had nothing of value because I had left my home unexpectedly and because I had been unemployed, gradually selling all the valuables I possessed to keep going. In the morning our train got under way again."
He goes on to describes being stationary for most of the day and;
"At 4 P.M. the train got under way again and, within a few minutes, we came into the Treblinka Camp."
The process starts at Malkinia and ends at TII and it does not take 7 minutes, it is merely a timetable that records 7 minutes, because it was showing the final destination, not exactly how long it would take to get there. That is why I am arguing it is merely a time used, to show the shunting process started almost immediately Malkinia was left.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 17, 2022 8:38:00 GMT
The process starts at Malkinia and ends at TII and it does not take 7 minutes, it is merely a timetable that records 7 minutes, because it was showing the final destination, not exactly how long it would take to get there. That is why I am arguing it is merely a time used, to show the shunting process started almost immediately Malkinia was left. It is clear that the Treblinka station had a siding where trains could sit. This has been mentioned by witnesses who specifically mention Treblinka station and not Treblinka; it is clear that there were shuttles shunted with other locomotives to the judenlager TII and the arbeitslager TI. Wiernik clearly shows that the camp he arrived at he called "Treblinka" was adjacent to the Warsaw Bialystok line. To argue that timetables do not mean what they say is somewhat limited and asinine. Accurate time tables are essential to running a railway simply to avoid crashes. Here is Wierniks first map: Wierniks first map drawn in 1944His subsequent maps do not hold up much as they are after considerable consultation and corruption. Apart from the Treblinka station there were no sidings but there are between Malkinia and the "Loop"; it seems that Wierniks transport was put in stasis on one of these for the day. This would take a few minutes to then get to the Malkinia transit camp aka Treblinka.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 17, 2022 8:38:41 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie has claimed that the fahrplanaordnung trains accounted for all deportees to Treblinka II. Which fahrplanaordnung shows the timetable for Wiernik's delivery to T-II?
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 17, 2022 8:43:33 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie has claimed that the fahrplanaordnung trains accounted for all deportees to Treblinka II. Which fahrplanaordnung shows the timetable for Wiernik's delivery to T-II? He hasn't just the generalized location called Treblinka. Arad said that most time tables stopped at Malkinia assuming they moved onto Treblinka. I have concluded that the Malkinia transit camp is also "Treblinka"; it is more possible that people were relocated to TI and TII from there; this would be a labour sorting area some going East, some going North others South. It would make sense to have the transit camp at a major railway junction.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 17, 2022 14:13:19 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie has claimed that the fahrplanaordnung trains accounted for all deportees to Treblinka II. Have I? Maybe you can quote me saying that, or apologise for yet again lying. Wiernik came from Warsaw, so he was on one of the shuttle trains.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 17, 2022 15:58:48 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Well, I could be mistaken so let's clear this up once and for all. Do you claim that all deportees arrived at Treblinka on trains designated shuttle trains by the fahrplanaordnungs? If not then there's an unknown number of trains that entered and left Treblinka II either with or without passengers.
So which shuttle train? The known fahrplanaordnung trains have no layover in Malkinia.
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