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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2022 9:13:10 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie is forever shrieking, "Liar, dirty liar" then blithely lies about what other posters have said. What I did say was fahrplanaordnung could have been referencing a Treblinka district or a specific camp. The fahrplanaordnung train delivered it's passengers to "Treblinka" that was 7 minutes away from Malkinia. Nessie apparently can't comprehend that a steam locomotive pulling 40-60 loaded freight cars can't travel 8 km in 7 minutes. What part of, "A steam locomotive pulling 40-60 loaded freight cars can't travel 8 km in 7 minutes"? The issue is not only the limited acceleration but the deceleration. The train with many wagons would go very slowly in those few km hence the long time.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 14:32:01 GMT
If there was another Treblinka camp 7 minutes by train from Malkinia, it would show up in the 1944 aerial photo. Fact is, we do not know why the timetable shows a time that seems too short, and we never will. There was a Malkinia camp: Here is the entry: translated Fridman Lejb * September 8, 1910 in Nasielsk Prisoner number 81 459 Arrival at Auschwitz on December 10, 1942 from the Malkinia transit camp. After the "selection" 524 men are registered as prisoners; the other 1,976 people are given special treatment.Quite a few things do not gel here. That is evidence of a Malkinia transit camp, sending people to A-B, where most were gassed and some men kept for work.
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 14:37:40 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie is forever shrieking, "Liar, dirty liar" then blithely lies about what other posters have said. What I did say was fahrplanaordnung could have been referencing a Treblinka district or a specific camp. The fahrplanaordnung train delivered it's passengers to "Treblinka" that was 7 minutes away from Malkinia. Nessie apparently can't comprehend that a steam locomotive pulling 40-60 loaded freight cars can't travel 8 km in 7 minutes. What part of, "A steam locomotive pulling 40-60 loaded freight cars can't travel 8 km in 7 minutes"?
Whereabouts in the Treblinka area was this camp, 7 minutes from Malkinia? You can use the 1944 aerial photo to show its location. We cab rule out Treblinka village as the destination of hundreds of thousands of people. There is nowhere else nearby that could take that number of people.
The only way that so many people could fit inside TII, is if they were killed and buried in mass graves.
Meanwhile, whilst the 7 minutes between Malkinia and TII is too short at time, it does not mean, therefore no mass transports were sent to TII and they went via Malkinia. Considering the number of trains and that trains had to be split to fit inside the camp, it may just be a timing given that was not met.
The Farplkanordnungs show mass transports to TII and the reason why there are no Fahrplaordnungs for mass transports back out of TII to other places, is because there were no such transports.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 15, 2022 15:27:54 GMT
Nessie wrote:
The Treblinka camp named by fahrplanaordnung 565 was apparently located next to the Malkinia loop. Wiernik's first map of Treblinka fits a Malkinia loop camp.
Where are these fahrplanaordnungs and their translations?
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 16:12:43 GMT
Nessie wrote: The Treblinka camp named by fahrplanaordnung 565 was apparently located next to the Malkinia loop. Wiernik's first map of Treblinka fits a Malkinia loop camp. Indicate where that Malkinia Loop camp is on an aerial photo. The OP has the Fahrplanordnungs that are online. How is it possible you have still not realised that? No one has translated them yet. The Warsaw Fahrplanordnung has the leaving time from Malkinia at 1613, arriving at TII at 1620. The Radom district and Lukow Fahrplanordnungs have Malkinia listed in the route, but the trains are not listed in the timetable, suggesting they passed through, but did not stop at Malkinia. Wiernik spoke of spending the night on the train at Malkinia prior to going to TII, it may be there were so many trains from Warsaw, that Malkinia had to be used to keep trains as they were shuttled in and out of TII. We are unable to discuss the evidence of mass transports back of TII, because there is none. We are only able to discuss the evidence of mass transports to TII.
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 15, 2022 19:08:17 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Fahrplanaordnung 565 has the train from Warsaw arriving at Malkinia at 1613 and arriving at Treblinka at 1620. That is NOT Treblinka II of the conventional narrative. What can't you understand about a steam train pulling loaded freight cars not being able to complete an 8 km journey in 7 minutes? What can't you understand about Treblinka II being 8 km away from Malkinia? What can't you understand about the fahrplanaordnung not saying anything at all about "Treblinka I", "Treblinka II" or "Treblinka station"? What can't you understand about 7 minutes would be the correct time span to travel to Treblinka if it was located next to the Malkinia loop?
Oh, hell no, there's no proof that at least 15,000 deportees left Treblinka for alternate destinations because there's no train records of any deportees leaving Treblinka. Nessie claims that only 6,500 - 9,000 left Treblinka because three witnesses claim to have left with entire trainloads so those numbers aren't given. No numbers for them so they don't count. They were just "trainloads".
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2022 20:48:08 GMT
What can't you understand about the fahrplanaordnung not saying anything at all about "Treblinka I", "Treblinka II" or "Treblinka station"? What can't you understand about 7 minutes would be the correct time span to travel to Treblinka if it was located next to the Malkinia loop? The distance to the Malkinia Loop is 1 km from the Malkinia station which would be done by train in 7 mins; the fahrplanaordnung is evidence of this being the location of a camp as well as Wierniks first map which distinctly shows the camp being adjacent to the Warsaw - Bialystok line. This fits in with the other information that mentions a very short time frame to reach that location. The loop also has the general shape of the Treblinka camp. I have put the Malkinia loop and the current TII side by side in the following image for a comparison.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 16, 2022 3:44:01 GMT
German waybill prepared by Generaldirektion der Ostbahn on 3 August 1942 for shuttle train No. 548 departing from Warszawa Gdaลska station to Treblinka beginning 6 August 1942 onward; exact timetable. Note the departure (abfliegen ab) in the document and arrival (ankommen an) Malkinia ab 16,13 an Treblinka 16,20 7 minutesreturn Treblinka ab 19,00 Malkinia ab 19,07 7 minutesThis has the same time for travel as Fahrplanaordnung 565 discussed previously. This therefore is no anomaly. Two different transports some 22 days apart. This image is fahrplanordnung-567In this document March 43 has the train leaving Malkinia at 6.20 and arriving at Treblinka at 6.30 a travel time of 10 minutes. The only conclusion that must be reached from this data is that the Treblinka these three different transports went to is not the location of the camp currently known as TII or even the Treblinka railway station. A train simply cannot travel 4.6 km in that time.
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 8:24:31 GMT
Nessie wrote: Fahrplanaordnung 565 has the train from Warsaw arriving at Malkinia at 1613 and arriving at Treblinka at 1620. That is NOT Treblinka II of the conventional narrative. What can't you understand about a steam train pulling loaded freight cars not being able to complete an 8 km journey in 7 minutes? What can't you understand about Treblinka II being 8 km away from Malkinia? What can't you understand about the fahrplanaordnung not saying anything at all about "Treblinka I", "Treblinka II" or "Treblinka station"? What can't you understand about 7 minutes would be the correct time span to travel to Treblinka if it was located next to the Malkinia loop? I understand that the Treblinka time is not going to be the time the train entered TII, as it had to stop and be split up. The document states "im Plan dg 91638" which translates as "in plan ie 91638". It then has the train leaving Treblinka at 1900 "im Sonderplan" which translates as "in the special plan". Multiple witnesses speak to how slow the process was, as trains were split and moved in and out of TII. It many be that the locomotive that brought the transport to Treblinka at 1620, was used to collect empty carriages from a previous transport and take them back to Warsaw. However it worked, the time in the Fahrplanordning cannot be the actual time the transport entered TII, as it could not enter TII as it had arrived. There is insufficient evidence to prove your 15,000 claim. The 9000 figure I use includes the full train loads, the 6,500 excludes them. That is why I use a range. What you constantly weasel dodge is the lack of any evidence of hundreds of thousands leaving TII for other destinations.
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 8:26:55 GMT
What can't you understand about the fahrplanaordnung not saying anything at all about "Treblinka I", "Treblinka II" or "Treblinka station"? What can't you understand about 7 minutes would be the correct time span to travel to Treblinka if it was located next to the Malkinia loop? The distance to the Malkinia Loop is 1 km from the Malkinia station which would be done by train in 7 mins; the fahrplanaordnung is evidence of this being the location of a camp as well as Wierniks first map which distinctly shows the camp being adjacent to the Warsaw - Bialystok line. This fits in with the other information that mentions a very short time frame to reach that location. The loop also has the general shape of the Treblinka camp. I have put the Malkinia loop and the current TII side by side in the following image for a comparison. That plan of TII is a better fit with the camp on the spur line, as it matches the area, outline and shows buildings, disturbed ground and rectangular outlines where the plan locates mass graves.
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 8:29:23 GMT
...... The only conclusion that must be reached from this data is that the Treblinka these three different transports went to is not the location of the camp currently known as TII or even the Treblinka railway station. A train simply cannot travel 4.6 km in that time. You are also failing to take into account that the trains as they left Warsaw, could not fit inside TII and had to be broken up and shunted, so the one time of arrival at "Treblinka" is not the actual time the train entered the camp. It is likely the time it arrived at the place where the shunting process started, which by witness descriptions is the tracks between Malkinia and Treblinka stations.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 16, 2022 9:18:41 GMT
It is likely the time it arrived at the place where the shunting process started, which by witness descriptions is the tracks between Malkinia and Treblinka stations. The only possible place on the Malkinia - Siedlce line is Treblinka station some 4.6 km away. If you find some reports of stranded passengers between Malkinia and Treblinka station please let the forum know. That place if it exists apart from the normal brain "fart" would not be Treblinka; train documents never mention temporary stops at sidings, especially in a multitude of documents.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 16, 2022 9:54:09 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Where does the fahrplanaordnung mention that the train was split up and then continued from Treblinka to Treblinka II? The train was in the Treblinka located on the Malkinia loop for 2 hours 40 minutes. That would be time enough to unload the passengers, clean the railcars and leave at 1900 hours for the return to Malkinia. One of the witnesses in the Hunt video said that he waited about 3 hours before reboarding the train.
The fahrplanaordnung makes no mention of any Treblinka except the Treblinka that was 7 minutes distance from Malkinia. There is NOTHING, zip, zero, nada said about the train being split up and being sent to Treblinka II. Nessie is back to his, "It coulda' happened that way" so that's the way it must have happened. The Malkinia train to the loop Treblinka did a drop and pick for it's return to Malkinia. So, we have that train taking 2 hours and 40 minutes for the drop and pick. I'm sure that Nessie can come up with enough "what ifs" to cover any time discrepancies.
Of course the fahrplanaordnung didn't say any of that but once again, Nessie turns on his psychic powers and divines what the fahrplanaordnung really meant. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what reeeeally happened.
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2022 11:17:38 GMT
Nessie wrote: Where does the fahrplanaordnung mention that the train was split up and then continued from Treblinka to Treblinka II? The train was in the Treblinka located on the Malkinia loop for 2 hours 40 minutes. That would be time enough to unload the passengers, clean the railcars and leave at 1900 hours for the return to Malkinia. One of the witnesses in the Hunt video said that he waited about 3 hours before reboarding the train. The fahrplanaordnung makes no mention of any Treblinka except the Treblinka that was 7 minutes distance from Malkinia. There is NOTHING, zip, zero, nada said about the train being split up and being sent to Treblinka II. Nessie is back to his, "It coulda' happened that way" so that's the way it must have happened. The Malkinia train to the loop Treblinka did a drop and pick for it's return to Malkinia. So, we have that train taking 2 hours and 40 minutes for the drop and pick. I'm sure that Nessie can come up with enough "what ifs" to cover any time discrepancies. Of course the fahrplanaordnung didn't say any of that but once again, Nessie turns on his psychic powers and divines what the fahrplanaordnung really meant. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what reeeeally happened. The Fahrplanordnung has a time of arrival at Treblinka, that as has been pointed out, cannot have been TII, because it was too far away from Malkinia. The issue is, why? The answer is derived not from psychic powers, but other evidence.
There is evidence from multiple witnesses and the physical size of TII, that a transport had to be split and shunted in and out of the camp and that shunting process took place between Malkinia and TII.
We now have the answer, the time of arrival at Treblinka is likely the time the shunting process started.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 16, 2022 11:35:31 GMT
Nessie wrote:
So, which "what if" are you going for? "What if" the train completed the shunting, the unloading of passengers and the cleaning of the railcars in 2 hours and 40 minutes or will it be the Treblinka train just did a drop and pick at the loop site?
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