Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 14, 2022 14:19:04 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie is weasel dodging the fact that the fahrplanaordnung states the destination of the deportees to be a Treblinka different from what is commonly known as "Treblinka II". Show me your evidence that those mass transports went to TI, or the village. There are multiple witnesses, some who believe, you say they were on mass transports to that camp and you have argued it was a transit camp. You weasel dodge that you have made that argument and now you are disputing mass transports to the camp!!!! The time makes sense if it is merely referring to the station at Treblinka, which is where trains stopped and began to shuttle back and forth to the camp. Those camps, like TI and TII will show up on the 1944 aerial photo. Can you point them out? You have also still not explained where all the c850,000 people you say were not gassed went. No witnesses, no documents, no remains of camps, but you still believe!
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 14, 2022 14:49:53 GMT
Nessie wrote:
(sigh) Seven minutes isn't sufficient time for a steam locomotive pulling loaded freight cars to reach either Treblinka II or the Treblinka station.
See the above.
And?
You still haven't proven ~860,000 Jews were sent to Treblinka II.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 14, 2022 16:03:06 GMT
Nessie wrote: (sigh) Seven minutes isn't sufficient time for a steam locomotive pulling loaded freight cars to reach either Treblinka II or the Treblinka station. See the above. And? Where are all those other camps you are suggesting are Treblinka camps? You fantasise about camps accommodating all the millions of Jews you claim were not gassed, without showing any evidence of where they were located or any details. You weasel dodge that if they had existed, they would have shown up in aerial photos and there would be visible remains even today. Remember, if c2.5 million Jews had not been gassed, then, by mid 1944, there would need to be a systme of camps to accommodate all of them, as enemies of the Reich, in prison. Which ruins your claim it was a transit camp. How can you insist the camp on the spur line, usually referred to as TII, or Treblinka death camp, was a transit camp, if you are now denying the evidence of mass transports to it?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 14, 2022 19:33:02 GMT
Nessie wrote:
It's unknown if the fahrplanaordnung was referring to the district of Treblinka or a specific camp. What was the German name for the penal camp at the gravel quarry?
Nazgul's analysis of fahrplanaordnung 565 shows that there was confusion over the location of Treblinka. It also corroborates Prudent Regret's hypothesis that a Treblinka camp was located in the vicinity of Malkinia. It also corroborates your thesis that Kulawy was in a Treblinka camp near Malkinia.
You are assuming that all of the deportees were sent to what you call "Treblinka II" but that's clearly not the case. Perhaps when Nazgul completes his analysis of other fahrplanaordnungs it will shed some light on which Treblinka was which.
I haven't denied that Jews were sent to what is called Treblinka II. From fahrplanaordnung 565 it's plain, though, that the Jews from Warsaw weren't ever sent to what is called Treblinka II. The fahrplanaordnung throws a kink in the Treblinka II camp being the extermination facility for ~860,000 Jews. You, of course, have no interest in anything that doesn't support the claim that ~860,000 were gassed, buried, etc. at what is called Treblinka II.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 14, 2022 21:27:09 GMT
The Stroop Report mentions TII. Hofle mentions T. Korherr mentions Treblinka, as do the Fahrplanordnungs. They are all related to mass transports of people and the only place in Treblinka evidenced to have received such mass transports is the camp on the spur line leading to the quarry. It was staffed by AR staff, which connects it to AR, which was the operation to empty the ghettos, steal the last of the property from those people and gas them. First Treblinka trial: "The expert witness Dr. Krausnick stated the following, inter alia: However, the Stroop Report actually reads as follows: Treblinka is not even mentioned in this passage of the Stroop Report." Relatives of deported Jews received letters and postcards from Bialystok, Pinsk, Bobruisk, Brzezc, Smolensk, Brest Litovsk, and Minsk. I doubt that a German Officer would take pride in putting in photos of a young terrified boy at Gunpoint... somewhat unprofessional. This is clearly black propaganda. Korherr does not mention Treblinka at all; this appears to be a fraudulent claim and T in the Hรถfle telegram could mean a number of places. Grasping at straws in not helping the believer cause.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2022 5:41:45 GMT
Will remind the readers that according to US intelligence and Gross Rowecki TII was a konzentrationslager aka judenlager.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 7:52:50 GMT
Nessie wrote: It's unknown if the fahrplanaordnung was referring to the district of Treblinka or a specific camp. Since there is no evidence whatsoever of mass transports to the village and there is a lot of evidence of mass transports to TII, it is known where the mass transports went. Treblinka, as shown in this notice about the founding of the camp; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp#/media/File:Treblinka_I_Arbeitslager_2-12-1941.jpg"Official announcement about the founding of Treblinka I Arbeitslager in General Government as the penal colony for social misfits (schidigende) written in German and Polish and signed by Governor Dr. Ludwig Fischer." Show me the location of this camp in the aerial photo from 1944. My thesis is that Kulawy was confused about where he was, not that there was a camp called Treblinka in Malkinia. If hundreds of thousands were sent to a camp nearby to TII, you would be able to locate it on the aerial photo and provide details about the camp from eyewitnesses. You have not produced any evidence of another camp. I am not interested in yet another one of your unevidenced claims. I am interested in evidence, of which you have none. The Fahrplanordnungs back up all the other evidence of mass transports from ghettos to TII. You are trying to find ways to dispute that, whilst failing to evidence what did happen.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 8:00:09 GMT
The Stroop Report mentions TII. Hofle mentions T. Korherr mentions Treblinka, as do the Fahrplanordnungs. They are all related to mass transports of people and the only place in Treblinka evidenced to have received such mass transports is the camp on the spur line leading to the quarry. It was staffed by AR staff, which connects it to AR, which was the operation to empty the ghettos, steal the last of the property from those people and gas them. First Treblinka trial: "The expert witness Dr. Krausnick stated the following, inter alia: However, the Stroop Report actually reads as follows: Treblinka is not even mentioned in this passage of the Stroop Report." Relatives of deported Jews received letters and postcards from Bialystok, Pinsk, Bobruisk, Brzezc, Smolensk, Brest Litovsk, and Minsk. I doubt that a German Officer would take pride in putting in photos of a young terrified boy at Gunpoint... somewhat unprofessional. This is clearly black propaganda. The Stroop Report also said "Of the total of 56,065 Jews caught, about 7,000 were exterminated within the former Ghetto in the course of the large-scale action, and 6,929 by transporting them to T.II, which means 14,000 Jews were exterminated altogether." "At the time of writing not one-of the Jews caught still remains within Warsaw. The scheduled transport to T. II had no success. [Note of translator: This probably means that no Jews were available for regular transport to the extermination camp.] " "The transports of Jews leaving here will be directed to T.II beginning today." " The Jews we catch now are sent to T.II." Korherr uses the same figure as Hofle, who was a head of AR. The staff at TII were all AR staff who had previously worked on T4. TII is obviously named as the second of the Treblinka camps, the labour camp being built in 1941. There is no Nazi document or witness that refers to any other Treblinka camp.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 8:04:40 GMT
Will remind the readers that according to US intelligence and Gross Rowecki TII was a konzentrationslager aka judenlager.
That is a US intelligence report that lists three camps in September 1941, yet at that time only the penal camp had been built at TI, next to the quarry. TII, the AR had not even been built at that time. There has never been any trace of a third camp. The report has errors.
You are using a report of an extermination camp, to argue there was no extermination camp!!!!
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2022 8:14:35 GMT
That is a US intelligence report that lists three camps in September 1941, yet at that time only the penal camp had been built at TI, next to the quarry. TII, the AR had not even been built at that time. There has never been any trace of a third camp. The report has errors. You are using a report of an extermination camp, to argue there was no extermination camp!!!! I did not say there was no extermination camp, just that it was not the current TII. There is much evidence of other camps in the area: Malkinia and Kosow Laski for starters. To say an Intelligence report is wrong due to preconceived assumptions is asinine. This was also supported by the Polish Home army General Gross Rowecki who described TII as a mere judenlager. The trains schedules for the trip from Malkinia to this Treblinka camp is far too short for the trip to TII by a factor of about 300%; I doubt if the train authorities would make such errors.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 8:28:12 GMT
That is a US intelligence report that lists three camps in September 1941, yet at that time only the penal camp had been built at TI, next to the quarry. TII, the AR had not even been built at that time. There has never been any trace of a third camp. The report has errors. You are using a report of an extermination camp, to argue there was no extermination camp!!!! I did not say there was no extermination camp, just that it was not the current TII. Every single Polish local and Nazi who worked at TII, locates it on the spur line. It has a factual error, only TI had been built by Sept 1941. Quote him saying that. The intelligence report is a list of camps, it is not naming them I, II and III. It happens to put the extermination camp third on the list. You are assuming it is to the camp itself and not Treblinka station, where the trains were then split and shuttled in and out of the camp.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2022 8:32:11 GMT
You are assuming it is to the camp itself and not Treblinka station, where the trains were then split and shuttled in and out of the camp. It is an impossibility for a train to travel 4.6 km in 7 min, 15 perhaps but more likely 30 mins.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 15, 2022 8:38:48 GMT
You are assuming it is to the camp itself and not Treblinka station, where the trains were then split and shuttled in and out of the camp. It is an impossibility for a train to travel 4.6 km in 7 min, 15 perhaps but more likely 30 mins. If there was another Treblinka camp 7 minutes by train from Malkinia, it would show up in the 1944 aerial photo. Fact is, we do not know why the timetable shows a time that seems too short, and we never will.
You latch on to this issue, because it deflects from the total lack of evidence of what happened to the hundreds of thousands of Jews sent on trains to "Treblinka". Whether you think that was the AR camp on the spur line, or another, does not resolve that there is no evidence those people ended up in camps anywhere else, alive.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2022 8:45:16 GMT
If there was another Treblinka camp 7 minutes by train from Malkinia, it would show up in the 1944 aerial photo. Fact is, we do not know why the timetable shows a time that seems too short, and we never will. There was a Malkinia camp: Here is the entry: translated Fridman Lejb * September 8, 1910 in Nasielsk Prisoner number 81 459 Arrival at Auschwitz on December 10, 1942 from the Malkinia transit camp. After the "selection" 524 men are registered as prisoners; the other 1,976 people are given special treatment.Quite a few things do not gel here.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 15, 2022 8:53:22 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie is forever shrieking, "Liar, dirty liar" then blithely lies about what other posters have said. What I did say was fahrplanaordnung could have been referencing a Treblinka district or a specific camp. The fahrplanaordnung train delivered it's passengers to "Treblinka" that was 7 minutes away from Malkinia. Nessie apparently can't comprehend that a steam locomotive pulling 40-60 loaded freight cars can't travel 8 km in 7 minutes.
What part of, "A steam locomotive pulling 40-60 loaded freight cars can't travel 8 km in 7 minutes"?
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