Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 17, 2022 15:41:44 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of trains that left Treblinka with passengers.
Where are the train schedules from Majdanek that show trains delivering deportees to that camp? As far as I know the train records for trains outbound from Treblinka no longer exist. You claim that they are located at Majdanek. Let's see your source and link for that.
So, you're claiming that people who didn't leave Treblinka by a regularly scheduled train don't count but trains that arrived at Treblinka at irregular intervals do count. What is your basis for claiming that? Why must trains be regularly scheduled?
The graves have now become just "disturbed ground"? Lukaszkiewcz DID write in his report that the graves no longer existed. CS-C did NOT show her GPR profile of the camp. Of course there's disturbed ground at Treblinka. The Germans built a transit camp there.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 17, 2022 15:49:07 GMT
Nessie wrote: That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of trains that left Treblinka with passengers. Why is witness evidence of passengers leaving TII not evidence of passengers leaving TII? We have discussed that before. Mattogno reported, in his book about Majdanek a source that found the dates, times and sex of people transported from TII to Majdanek. Evidence of occasional limited transports to camps in Poland that are south and west of TII, is not evidence of regular mass transports to somewhere to the east of TII. It is the area and depth of the disturbed ground that fits with witness claims of mass graves, where the bodies were exhumed, cremated and mixed back into the ground and subsequent grave robbing. |
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Post by been_there on Jul 17, 2022 17:56:10 GMT
That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of trains that left Treblinka with passengers. Why is witness evidence of passengers leaving TII not evidence of passengers leaving TII? The level of miscomprehension in this reply from Nessie is quite astounding. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 18, 2022 1:32:06 GMT
been-there wrote:
"Why is witness evidence of passengers leaving TII not evidence of passengers leaving TII?".
Just part of Nessie's non-answers. It isn't supposed to make sense. It steers the discussion away from the obvious answer that the number of witnesses who left Treblinka via rail has nothing to do with the total number of trains that left Treblinka with passengers. Rather like asking, "How many trains leave London daily" and receiving an answer of, "I and ten others left London on a train".
The same for my question about the outbound train records from Treblinka. Nessie answers:
That has absolutely nothing to do with the outbound train records for Treblinka. Those records don't exist but Nessie is attempting to avoid and obfuscate that fact. It isn't a misconception but a rather clumsy attempt to avoid facts that interfere with his narrative.
Then we have Nessie's claim that there must be evidence of "regular mass transports". What is a "regular mass transport"? Does he mean a regularly scheduled transport? One that departs from a location and arrives at a destination at regularly scheduled intervals? Nessie refuses to define his term but but insists on using it as though it's some sort of magic talisman. If it wasn't "regular" then it doesn't count. Nessie is trying to avoid the fact that outbound train schedules from Treblinka don't exist and the number of people who were sent to alternate destinations from Treblinka is unknown. It isn't part of his narrative so he must deflect, divert or obfuscate that fact.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 18, 2022 9:31:41 GMT
been-there wrote: "Why is witness evidence of passengers leaving TII not evidence of passengers leaving TII?". Just part of Nessie's non-answers. It isn't supposed to make sense. It steers the discussion away from the obvious answer that the number of witnesses who left Treblinka via rail has nothing to do with the total number of trains that left Treblinka with passengers. Rather like asking, "How many trains leave London daily" and receiving an answer of, "I and ten others left London on a train". You are trying to suggest that inbetween the trains that arrived full and left empty to go back to the ghettos, and the trains that left carrying some passengers to labour camps in Poland, hundreds of other trains arrived empty and picked up the rest of the people, transporting hundreds of thousands to unknown destinations. You are trying to weasel dodge that there is no evidence from any source whatsoever, of that happening. The other transports all left evidence from a combination of documents and witnesses. The mass departures left no evidence at all. That appeals to your belief in conspiracies, where you claim all the evidence for those transports has been hidden and destroyed. I point out that it is physically impossible to hide and destroy all that evidence, and in any case, why would the Nazis cooperate with such an action, when it the evidence that proves they are innocent of the accusation of mass murder? There are no known records from TII itself. There are records elsewhere that reference TII. There are records of transports to TII and arrivals from TII. How did the historians find out about the date, number transported and their sex, other than from documentary records at Majdanek? If hundreds of thousands of people left TII on hundreds of transports, even if all the records from TII are destroyed, there are still the records at the destinations. The documents at TII were destroyed, the documents at Majdanek were not. I have defined regular mass transport. There were regular mass transports of hundreds of trains that took c860,000 people to TII. Those trains arrived on almost a daily basis. The trains arrived full and left empty For those people to have left TII, there need to be other regular mass transports of trains arriving empty, to leave full. The records of the full trains arriving from the ghettos and returning empty to the ghettos exist. They are at the ghettos. If other trains arrived empty and left full, there would be records at the places they arrived at. There is no evidence of that happening and it is physically impossible for it to happen without leaving any evidence. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 18, 2022 22:16:35 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I'm not "suggesting" anything. I'm stating as plainly as I know how that THE TRAIN RECORDS FOR TRAINS LEAVING TREBLINKA ARE MISSING SAVE FOR THE TRAINS ASSIGNED TO SHUTTLE SERVICE. Those records don't exist therefore the number of people who left Treblinka via rail is UNKNOWN.
The train records for outbound trains from Treblinka don't exist except for the trains assigned to return empty to Warsaw or possibly other ghettos. The number of trains that entered and left Treblinka is UNKNOWN. What can't you understand about that, Nessie? Why does that simple fact elude you? It's answers like the above that lead both been-there and myself to question your sanity.
It's known that Jews did leave Treblinka via rail. No question about that. However, the train records are missing, gone, lost, destroyed, whatever so the total number of Jews who left Treblinka is UNKNOWN. Could the witnesses in Hunt's video be the only Jews who left Treblinka alive? Possibly. Could all of the Jews except for those who died in transit or at Treblinka left Treblinka via rail? Possibly. Without the effing train records the total number of Jews who left Teblinka via rail is UNKNOWN.
You continually claim to have evidence that the Jews were gassed, buried, exhumed and cremated at Treblinka. You don't. You have the impossible claims made by the alleged witnesses and the claims made by a communist magistrate and an archaeology student. As I said before:
Numerous witnesses speak of hermetically sealed gas chambers. You say, "They were mistaken". Witnesses claim absurd dimensions for the graves. You say, "They were exaggerating". Numerous witnesses claim that whole bodies were exhumed with a clamshell equipped dragline. As far as I know you haven't come up with an excuse for that claim. Witnesses describe various forms and sizes for the cremation pyres. You say that they were just speaking "emotively". Witnesses describe exothermic cremations. You make specious claims for cadaver disposal at Ohrdruff and Dresden. Alternately you claim that hundreds of thousands of tons of firewood was secretly shipped to Treblinka.
I know of NO alleged witness whose story doesn't require your "what ifs" and "coulda woulda". When ALL (or nearly all) witness claims need such excuses then it's safe to say that those witnesses are lying.
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 18, 2022 23:51:06 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That is according to Wikipedia. Nessie's definitive statement about the Jews transport to Treblinka. Giddoutahere!
Here is the translation of the definition for the word "fahrplanaordnung":
From the Wikipedia timeline of transporting Jews to Treblinka, here is a list of the fahrplanaordnungs.
August 6, 1942.............#548
August 25, 1942...........#562
August 28, 1942...........#565
September 16, 1942......#587
September 21, 1942......#594
September 23, 1942......#587
February 9, 1943..........#552
March 26, 1943............#567
August 18, 1943...........#290
So, we have nine (9) trains receiving special orders to go collect Jews. Nessie claims that the full records exist at "the ghettos". Really? How about a link to those ghetto records, Nessie.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 19, 2022 7:49:17 GMT
Nessie wrote: I'm not "suggesting" anything. I'm stating as plainly as I know how that THE TRAIN RECORDS FOR TRAINS LEAVING TREBLINKA ARE MISSING SAVE FOR THE TRAINS ASSIGNED TO SHUTTLE SERVICE. Those records don't exist therefore the number of people who left Treblinka via rail is UNKNOWN. The train records for outbound trains from Treblinka don't exist except for the trains assigned to return empty to Warsaw or possibly other ghettos. The number of trains that entered and left Treblinka is UNKNOWN. What can't you understand about that, Nessie? Why does that simple fact elude you? It's answers like the above that lead both been-there and myself to question your sanity. It's known that Jews did leave Treblinka via rail. No question about that. However, the train records are missing, gone, lost, destroyed, whatever so the total number of Jews who left Treblinka is UNKNOWN. Could the witnesses in Hunt's video be the only Jews who left Treblinka alive? Possibly. Could all of the Jews except for those who died in transit or at Treblinka left Treblinka via rail? Possibly. Without the effing train records the total number of Jews who left Teblinka via rail is UNKNOWN. That is only the case if you believe no one was gassed and it requires you to believe that hundreds of empty trains, 2 or 3 a day, arrived at TII, in between all the trains that arrived full and left empty, or with a few passengers to go to labour camps in Poland, to then transport those not gassed to places unknown, all without leaving any evidence, from documents or witnesses. It is not physically possible for all those trains to arrive and leave without leaving any evidence at all, from any source. Your argument from incredulity, where you shout "what if we take the witnesses literally?" and none of the site examinations can be trusted, is a logical fail. |
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Post by Nessie on Jul 19, 2022 7:56:22 GMT
Nessie wrote: That is according to Wikipedia. Nessie's definitive statement about the Jews transport to Treblinka. Giddoutahere! No, that is from historical research of all the documents recording transports to TII. Non 548 is one of the Warsaw shuttle trains. All of the Fahrplanaordnungs you list of ghetto transports of people to TII. Most are not online, I linked you to the ones I could find in the thread about transport records rodoh.info/thread/382/tii-transport-records |
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 19, 2022 8:43:45 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I'm forced to agree with been-there. Nessie is truly a nutzoid. His fanatical beliefs in the holyhoax have driven him around the bend to the point where he can't comprehend even simple statements of fact.
Let's try a simple experiment. Are the train records/schedules for trains other than the shuttle trains arriving and departing from Treblinka missing? What is your answer to that, Nessie?
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Post by Nessie on Jul 19, 2022 14:03:00 GMT
Nessie wrote: I'm forced to agree with been-there. Nessie is truly a nutzoid. His fanatical beliefs in the holyhoax have driven him around the bend to the point where he can't comprehend even simple statements of fact. Let's try a simple experiment. Are the train records/schedules for trains other than the shuttle trains arriving and departing from Treblinka missing? What is your answer to that, Nessie? I have already answered that question, on numerous occasions.
Again, but you will forget and ask me the question again.
There are no records of empty trains arriving at TII and taking those you claim were not away.
Why do you struggle so much to remember that answer?
You suggest the records/schedules are "missing", but they never existed, because there were no trains that arrived at TII and took away all the people you claim were not gassed.
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 19, 2022 22:28:56 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Neither are there any records of trains departing Treblinka with passengers although it's known that deportees DID leave Treblinka via rail. Nessie is trying to weasel dodge the fact that the records for trains leaving Treblinka don't exist. Excepting of course the trains assigned to shuttle service. If I don't put that caveat in Nessie will be shrieking, "You lie". There are fahrplanaordnungs for a very limited number of trains but no actual train schedules for them.
Well, I'm an old man and have always been absent minded but I don't recall you ever admitting that the records for trains outbound from Treblinka no longer exist. (Except for the shuttle trains.) Humor me and tell me once again that, "The records for outbound trains from Treblinka no longer exist".
So there we have it, folks. No trains that arrived at Treblinka departed with passengers. We have corroborated witness testimony that trains did arrive and depart with passengers but apparently that doesn't count. Those were just "selected deportees"....or somepin'.
Yep, Nessie has "already answered" the question of the missing train records. According to Nessie those records never existed.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 20, 2022 8:03:24 GMT
Nessie wrote: Neither are there any records of trains departing Treblinka with passengers although it's known that deportees DID leave Treblinka via rail. Nessie is trying to weasel dodge the fact that the records for trains leaving Treblinka don't exist. That is not true, stop lying. There are no TII records, there are records at other camps and ghettos that relate to TII, such as the records at Majdanek of transports from TII. There are Fahrplanordnungs for a large number of the trains to TII. Show me an example of a "schedule". The TII camp records, all of them, no longer exist. The result is there are no records that originated inside TII of trains leaving outbound. There are records at Majdanek of trains coming inbound from TII. There may be other records at other camps, such as Budzyn, of inbound transports from TII. Yes, there is no evidence of hundreds of empty trains arriving at TII to take away people, so there are not surprisingly no schedules, or other records of those trains, since they never ran. |
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Post by Nessie on Jul 20, 2022 8:05:47 GMT
Posts added to this thread, as the discussion had moved to transport records.
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 20, 2022 9:53:45 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie shrieks, "Stop lying" and then promptly proceeds to lie about the train records at such camps as Majdanek. There are NO train records at Majdanek of deportees arriving there from Treblinka. There are records of deportees arriving at Majdanek but no records for the trains that transported them. Just the record for the number of deportees arriving, departing, dying; the disposition of deportees but NO train records. Nessie is trying to weasel dodge that fact by claiming that, "records" exist at Majdanek.
Nessie knows that's a weasel dodge, that he's lying about no outbound train records from Treblinka. He's unwilling to admit that the train records for trains outbound from Treblinka no longer exist.
Nessie claims that numerous fahrplanaordnungs exist for trains leaving Treblinka. According to Nessie's own wikipedia claims only nine (9) fahrplanaordnungs exist in the wikipedia "timeline". Bottom line, Nessie is unwilling to admit that the outbound train records for Treblinka have been destroyed/lost. The number of trains that left Treblinka with passengers is UNKNOWN and the number of deportees who left Treblinka on those trains is also UNKNOWN. That Treblinka is evidenced to be a transit camp and it's possible that most of the deportees who arrived at Treblinka also left there via rail isn't a thought that Nessie is willing to entertain.
Nessie's fanatical belief in the holyhoax simply doesn't allow him to consider any other possibility. I have said on numerous occasions that it's possible for Treblinka to have been an extermination facility. Any serious investigation of the camp that turned up proof of the mass graves and the existence of large quantities of cremains and I would quietly fold up my tent and leave. I wouldn't like admitting that I had been wrong. Nobody does but unlike Nessie, I'm not willing to ignore reality in support of my theses that Treblinka wasn't an extermination facility.
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