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Post by been_there on Aug 17, 2022 11:00:23 GMT
I and others have repeatedly provided you with evidence. I challenge that claim. Give me an example of evidence from a witness, document, archaeological report, photo, physical item that you have provided. ๐ฎ Wow! ๐ I just did EXACTLY THAT in the post you are replying to, regarding Wiernikโs witness testimony. I just did EXACTLY THAT with the witness Franciszek Zabecki and his initial 3 million claim. I just did EXACTLY THAT with the witness testimony of Marian Olszuk. I just did EXACTLY THAT referring to the function of Aktion Reinhardt camps. I just did EXACTLY THAT regarding the commonality of cherry red discolouring after HCN poisoning Etc., etc., etc. I didnโt say it wasnโt. Unlike you I donโt make absolutist statements based only on my opinion. Plus we have been over the problematical nature of it and you were unable to understand that.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 17, 2022 12:18:11 GMT
I challenge that claim. Give me an example of evidence from a witness, document, archaeological report, photo, physical item that you have provided. ๐ฎ Wow! ๐ I just did EXACTLY THAT in the post you are replying to, regarding Wiernikโs witness testimony. He is a witness to the theft of property including all clothing, that guards would take property for themselves, the distress of the people as they found out what was happening to them, the mass gassings, the graves and pyres and the terrible smell from the camp at times. He is a witness to mass transports to the camp, the distress of the people on the trains, the cruelty the Nazis dished out, empty trains and trains carrying property leaving and the rebellion and closure of the camp. He is a witness to local Poles trading with camp staff, hearing sounds of distress from inside the camp, the burning of clothing and a terrible smell. You have referenced three witnesses who corroborate the historical narrative of TII as an AR camp where people had all their property stolen from them and they were killed. You are trying to push an alternative narrative, that AR was only about property, ignoring that it had to also be about people. Once all the people's clothing ect had been sent from the camp, what happened to them? You have misunderstood medical evidence. You have no evidence that something else happened inside the AR camps. I do not believe the claims that there are problems with the intercept, that make it suspect. They are merely excuses to doubt the evidence, in the same way there are excuses to doubt Wiernik etc. Deniers do not actually presented any evidence to support their claims. They merely doubt the evidence of mass gassings and then claim, therefore something else happened.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 17, 2022 13:04:05 GMT
I think that Nessie has you there, been-there. He believes in the holyhoax and there's nothing that you or I or anyone can say to shake that belief. It's become his quasi religion and as such nothing is going to affect his sun rises in the east and sets in the west belief in it. Muslim or Christian fundamentalists have nothing on Nessie when it comes to belief. You could invent a time machine, take Nessie back to 1942-43 Treblinka and he would find a reason to dispute what was observable.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 17, 2022 13:29:50 GMT
I think that Nessie has you there, been-there. He believes in the holyhoax and there's nothing that you or I or anyone can say to shake that belief. It's become his quasi religion and as such nothing is going to affect his sun rises in the east and sets in the west belief in it. Muslim or Christian fundamentalists have nothing on Nessie when it comes to belief. You could invent a time machine, take Nessie back to 1942-43 Treblinka and he would find a reason to dispute what was observable. If you can produce evidence from a witness who worked inside TII, a document directly pertaining to the camp, an archaeological survey of the site or physical evidence from the site, that proves something else happened other than mass gassings, then I will believe you. Mine is not a religious belief as you inaccurately claim, it is an evidence based belief.
You have a belief that is contrary to the evidence and you cannot even confidently describe what happened inside TII to the people sent there. You suggest mass transportations back out of the camp to mass resettlement in the Lublin District, for which there is no evidence.
Any rational person will see it is you who has fallen for the hoax.
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Post by been_there on Aug 17, 2022 13:54:46 GMT
๐ฎ Wow! ๐ I just did EXACTLY THAT in the post you are replying to, regarding Wiernikโs witness testimony. He is a... [blah, blah, blah] He is a witness to... [blah, blah, blah] He is a witness to local Poles... [blah, blah, blah] You have referenced three witnesses who... [blah, blah, blah] You are trying to... [blah, blah, blah] You have... [blah, blah, blah] You have no evidence that something else happened inside the AR camps. I do not believe the claims... [blah, blah, blah] Here Nessie has been caught making a false accusation. She/he just avoids that fact and moves the goalposts. I hope others are noticing how dishonestly Holocaust believers behave. Nessie is a good example of how they cannot have a reasonable, intelligent, honest dialogue but need to resort to tricks, bad faith arguments and avoidance. Plus notice how in her/his last sentence she/he resorts to a genuine โargument from incredulityโ fallacy. Oh the irony! ๐๐ ๐คช
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Post by Nessie on Aug 17, 2022 15:05:09 GMT
He is a... [blah, blah, blah] He is a witness to... [blah, blah, blah] He is a witness to local Poles... [blah, blah, blah] You have referenced three witnesses who... [blah, blah, blah] You are trying to... [blah, blah, blah] You have... [blah, blah, blah] You have no evidence that something else happened inside the AR camps. I do not believe the claims... [blah, blah, blah] Here Nessie has been caught making a false accusation. She/he just avoids that fact and moves the goalposts. I hope others are noticing how dishonestly Holocaust believers behave. Nessie is a good example of how they cannot have a reasonable, intelligent, honest dialogue but need to resort to tricks, bad faith arguments and avoidance. My point, which has been missed by you, I am quite sure deliberately, because you know you have no evidence, is that you cannot provide evidence as to what happened. That you do not believe Wiernik, or Zabecki's transport figure is not evidence. Olszuk corroborates other claims about TII and was never asked key questions. Disputing what AR involved and the evidence regarding cherry skin in CO poisoning is not evidence. My point is that you have no evidence from anyone who worked at TII, went to TII, lived near TII, or any document, archaeological study etc that proves something else other than mass gassings etc happened. The type of evidence you do not have is - a Nazi who worked at the camp who said what happened and it did not involved gassings - a document recording regular mass transports back out of TII - a site survey that finds minimal ground disturbances, so mass graves cannot have been dug there. Disagreeing with a claim that is not backed by evidence, is not an argument from incredulity.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 18, 2022 2:30:03 GMT
Nessie wrote:
There are about 20 witnesses from the Hunt video who claim to have been transported out of Treblinka along with thousands of others. Those claims have been proven. Those claims are evidence that Treblinka was a transit camp from eyewitnesses who were in Treblinka.
Krege claimed to have used GPR to show that there were no mass graves at Treblinka. That's archaeological evidence that Treblinka wasn't an extermination facility that is no more unbelievable or believable than the archaeological claims made by Colls and Lukaszkiwicz. Both Krege and Colls show ONE (1) GPR scan. Lukaszkiewicz took no samples, performed no lab analysis nor took any in situ photographs of what he claimed to have found.
The train records for the number of trains that entered and left Treblinka are no longer available so the the number of trains that entered and left Treblinka either with or without passengers is unknown. From the fahrplanaordnungs it's known that Jews were transported from Warsaw and other ghettos to Treblinka but the number of trains involved in that transfer along with the actual number of Jews transported to Treblinka is unknown.
There is evidence that Treblinka was a transit camp. There is equivocal evidence both for and against the claim of mass graves at Treblinka. Records that would unequivocally show the number of deportees who entered and left Treblinka no longer exist. There were/are quite a few Germans who deny the claim that murdering Jews was the official policy of the National Socialist government.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 18, 2022 8:35:21 GMT
Nessie wrote: There are about 20 witnesses from the Hunt video who claim to have been transported out of Treblinka along with thousands of others. Those claims have been proven. Only by your standard of proof, which is based on your own opinion of believability. They describe a process whereby they were put into one group of people and the rest of the transport went further into the camp, never to be seen again. The rest were put back onto trains and went to work in labour camps in Poland. That process was also described at other AR camps and A-B. It does not make them transit camps. It is evidence of the Nazis needing some for work and the rest were to be killed. According to you, until both Krege and C S-C make their full scans available for you to assess, the state of the ground cannot be determined. Again, you hold yourself as the most credible and reliable determinant of believability. What is known is that there are records of the transports to the camps, that all those trains came from ghettos and they returned empty. What is known is that some trains went from TII to labour camps, primarily Majdanek, many of which carried property. The only trains that left no evidence, from documents, from witnesses, from anything, are the mystical trains that supposedly arrived empty and took hundreds of thousands of people to the Lublin District, where magically they were accommodated without anyone noticing. No Nazi who worked at TII denied it was used for gassings. Your transit camp claim is contradicted by the evidence you present!
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 18, 2022 9:01:58 GMT
Nessie goes into a paroxysm of "It's just your opinion". Actually it's not "my opinion" that the records from Majdanek and the USHMM corroborate the statements given by the deportees from Treblinka. Neither is your claim that all of the trains that transported Jews to Treblinka had to return empty to the ghettos from which they came. That just plain doesn't make any sense.
Neither Krege nor Colls made their GPR profiles available for analysis by anyone not just by me. That's just another plain matter of fact whether you like it or not, Nessie.
I'll reiterate: The Germans "confessed" to atrocities at Treblinka were all subject to coercion. Germans who weren't all declared that the claim that there was an official government policy to exterminate the Jews was false. Just one more of those inconvenient facts.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Aug 18, 2022 9:15:20 GMT
No Nazi who worked at TII denied it was used for gassings. Your transit camp claim is contradicted by the evidence you present! Perhaps because most were murdered by the terrorists.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 18, 2022 9:16:21 GMT
Nessie goes into a paroxysm of "It's just your opinion". Actually it's not "my opinion" that the records from Majdanek and the USHMM corroborate the statements given by the deportees from Treblinka. It is your opinion that evidence is evidence of TII being a transit camp. Look again and you will see that it is evidence of a selection process, the same as reported at other AR camps and A-B. The ghettos were being emptied. It makes sense and it is evidenced that the trains returned empty. It makes no sense that people were taken on trains to TII, showered and the taken back to the ghettos, which, from your claims, is what would have happened! It is your opinion that is somehow suspicious and a sign of there being little disturbed ground, consistent with mass graves. There is no evidence of coercion for the Nazis who were tried in Germany for what happened at the AR camps. They all admitted to what had happened and their claims are corroborated by evidence independent of them. They truthfully claimed they were acting under orders and doing what was necessary and was not illegal at that time. The Belzec camp trial resulted in most of the Nazis being acquitted. The Nazis who worked on AR came from T4. They had worked on T4 euthanising the disabled, for the benefit of the Reich. They then worked on AR euthanising Jews and others such as Roma gypsy, for the benefit of the Reich. In both operations, gas chambers were used. T4 was official policy, signed off by Hitler, but it had to be cancelled due to public and church protests. AR was kept as secret as possible, with the smokescreen of resettlement. Every part of AR is evidenced, except your claim of hundreds of thousands not being gassed and being taken to be resettled somewhere. You never properly consider how it would be possible to do that without leaving any evidence.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 18, 2022 10:16:13 GMT
Nessie wrote:
It is NOT my opinion that Jews were first sent to Treblinka and then transported to alternate destinations. That is a fact. It is YOUR opinion that there were "selections for work". If the Jews who left Treblinka were "selected for work" only then quote them stating that, "We were selected for work".
There is evidence of nine fahrplanaordnungs. That's not proof that ALL trains that carried Jews to Treblinka had to return to the ghettos empty. Where did the trains go when a ghetto was empty? Where did the trains that carried passengers from Treblinka to Majdanek and elsewhere come from? What about the passenger coaches that brought Jews from Greece to Treblinka? Your claim that ALL of the trains had to return to a ghetto after delivering passengers to Treblinka is bullsh!t.
Hunh? Where the hell did that come from?
The existence of mass graves as described by the alleged eyewitnesses remains unproven. Lukaszkiewicz said that the graves no longer existed. Colls said that she had found only "probable" graves. Krege said that he had found no graves. It is MY OPINION that the graves don't exist but whether they do or not remains unproven. What can't you understand about that?
And no part is proven. It's YOUR OPINION that the AR camps were extermination facilities.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 18, 2022 16:19:33 GMT
Nessie wrote: It is NOT my opinion that Jews were first sent to Treblinka and then transported to alternate destinations. That is a fact. It is YOUR opinion that there were "selections for work". If the Jews who left Treblinka were "selected for work" only then quote them stating that, "We were selected for work". Being selected to go to a labour camp and work, is reasonably called a selection for work. The people who were not selected for work, were never seen again. The process of arriving, being spilt into lines, some people being taken away to work and others being taken to specific buildings and never seen again, only happened at the AR camps and A-B. Back to the town or city the ghetto was located and put back on to what run it was on before it was used for the ghetto transports. Lublin, where Majdanek was located. Trains ran between there and the AR camps, collecting the stolen property. Any worker selections would just be put onto those trains. It would go back to Greece. The transports from Warsaw, used Warsaw trains. The Bialystock transports used Bialystock trains. The town or city the ghetto was in had trains used to take people to TII and then they would return to go back to what it was they did before. That is what the Fahrplanordnungs prove happened. You doubt the ghetto transport trains left empty, but they were going back to where they came from, so if they left full, they were taking people back to where they came from! You have misinterpreted Luckaskiewicz and C S-C and Krege is not reliable. It is proven that there are large areas of disturbed ground at TII. No it is proven from the evidence. You are dodging that there is no evidence that something else happened inside TII and hundreds of thousands left the camp.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 18, 2022 17:23:53 GMT
So, no quotes from any of the deportees saying, "I was selected for work". Then we have Nessie exercising his psychic powers about people who were never seen again. Really? Name a few of those who were gassed and never seen again. Name 20-30, that should do it.
That has to rank in the top ten of idiotic things you've said. Why in hell would the Germans deadhead a train back to an empty ghetto before dispatching it to other freight duties? Just to suit your cockamamie claim that ALL trains returned empty to a ghetto?
It had to go back to Greece? Did it have to deadhead there, too? It couldn't take passengers to other European cities until it returned to Greece? Geez, who knew?
See my answer concerning idiocy.
Where the hell did you come up with the notion that I doubted that some shuttle trains operated to transport Jews to Treblinka?
No, I didn't "misinterpret" Lukaszkiewicz or CS-C. Lukaszkiewicz DID say that the graves no longer existed. Colls DID say that the pits that she claimed to have found were "probable" graves. She was very careful NOT to positively identify them as graves. I've never claimed that Krege was reliable. Whether the graves and cremains exist remains unknown.
In that case show me proof of the graves and a couple of thousand tons of cremains.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 18, 2022 18:58:17 GMT
So, no quotes from any of the deportees saying, "I was selected for work". OK, so why were they split from the others in their transports and sent to labour camps? The selection process is proven; encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/at-the-killing-centers"After deportation trains arrived at the killing centers, guards ordered the deportees to get out and form a line. The victims then went through a selection process. Men were separated from women and children. A Nazi, usually an SS physician, looked quickly at each person to decide if he or she was healthy and strong enough for forced labor. This SS officer then pointed to the left or the right; victims did not know that individuals were being selected to live or die. Babies and young children, pregnant women, the elderly, people with disabilities, and the sick had little chance of surviving this first selection." Link to the "Book of Names" of those killed at TII here; memoryoftreblinka.org/the-names-of-the-victims/If a train is taken from its normal route, to be used to for a transport to TII, it is reasonable for that train to return to go to its normal route. The Fahrplanordnungs show the timetables of trains returning to where they came from. Take what passengers back to Greece? If you have evidence the Greek transport took other people back to Greece, show it. The Fahrplanordnungs prove trains returned to their origin, which makes sense, since they were either returning to pick more people up, or they were returning to go back to their usual route. They all transported Jews to TII, some c850,000 of them. You cannot evidence anything like that number left and then you claim magical trains appeared and took them away, but someone sneaked into the archives and hid all the records! Lukaszkiewicz said that instead of mass graves with corpses, he found large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains, which corroborates the witnesses who said the bodies were exhumed, cremated and mixed back into the ground. C S-C confirmed the presence of large pits and identified the ones in the areas where witness said mass graves were located as probable graves, because unless they are dug into, it cannot be 100% certain if a pit is a grave or a rubbish pit. There is nothing 100% in science, so scientists always leave room for error. I have already done that, you just wheel out excuses to disbelieve the evidence. It is also off topic.
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