Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Aug 16, 2022 14:29:04 GMT
Whether you consider the evidence to be credible or not, is moot, since your opinion does not accurately determine credibility. It is not my opinion that is under discussion. Holy moly!! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ This critical analysis has been ongoing since the 1950s. The evidence and lack of it determines credibility. Since there is no evidence of the regular mass transports back out of TII of hundreds of thousands of people, does that not mean there were no such transports? Give me an example of evidence that will not be discussed. Mass gassings are evidenced. Mass transports back out of the camp are not. Those who demand that the evidence is disbelieved, and what is not evidenced is believed, are being demonised as fools who are promoting a hoax, a hoax that by suggesting all the witnesses to gassings are liars or were manipulated and evidence has been faked, is designed to spread anti-Semitic hatred. You said; " We have explained that the only credible evidence we have is that: 1.) people were transited through T2 after being showered, disinfected, fed and selected for work. 2.) peopleโs confiscated property was sorted there." I read that as it being a form of transit camp. If that is not the case, what would you call TII?
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Aug 16, 2022 14:38:30 GMT
Again another transparently dishonest and stupid attempt at obfuscating, confusing and thus dodging the actual challenge. The same tactic Nessie uses on mass gassings, mass graves and now here with mass transports. Silly, stupid and dishonest behaviour. We are not discussing a vague number of people transported. You were asked to provide evidence of approx 850,000 transported to and ENTERING T2. And you were asked for proof of that number BECAUSE YOU demand evidence of that many leaving T2. [sheesh!!! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ] I have provided the evidence to prove, c850,000 people entered TII. I showed you where that evidence is. The figure is primarily from ghetto transport records and it is corroborated by Hofle and Korherr. They both had over 700,000 arriving by the end of 1942 and ghetto transports show another c150,000 arrived in 1943.
The evidence as to how many left is that Turnagain suggests c15,000, Eric Hunt c9,000 and others on TSSF say it is closer to 2,000, because not all the witnesses Hunt uses are likely correct about which camp they are in. I use the range 6,500 to 9,000 based on the list Hunt produced.
The evidence shows a huge discrepancy, of hundreds of thousands arriving and thousands leaving. You are reluctant to discuss that discrepancy, because, there is no evidence at all, not even disputed evidence, that hundreds of thousands left.
It is you who is using tactics and stupid, dishonest behaviour to dodge that lack of evidence.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Aug 16, 2022 15:24:06 GMT
It is not my opinion that is under discussion. Holy moly!! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ This critical analysis has been ongoing since the 1950s. The evidence and lack of it determines credibility. Since there is no evidence of the regular mass transports back out of TII of hundreds of thousands of people, does that not mean there were no such transports? No, it does not. That is another quite literally moronic response. You still havenโt provided any proof of 850,000 people transported specifically INTO the specific camp called T2. Plus you made a false claim that this is all merely a matter of opinion of mine. It clearly isnโt that. So another deception or delusion. But you just hopped over that and are back to repeating the same illogical nonsense already replied to and refuted. The Holyhoax mass-gassing claim of 850,000 murdered Joos at T2 has only one eye-witness to the specific number of victims: Franciszek Zabecki. And that is because it is claimed โHe was the only trained observer to be on the spot throughout the entire existence of the Treblinka extermination campโ.
Yet he claimed that 3 million joos were transported there and never left. And he emphasised that he was totally certain of that number! Do a search online and you will find many websites DISHONESTLY repeating his disgustingly racist and perverse anti-German atrocity propaganda, but no mention of that embarrassing lie. This is just one small example of how the hoax is maintained.
|
|
Turnagain
โ๏ธ
๐๐ผ๐ป๐ผ๐ฟ๐ฎ๐๐๐
Posts: 2,302
|
Post by Turnagain on Aug 16, 2022 15:27:20 GMT
There is no doubt that at one time the records for trains entering and leaving Treblinka existed. To suggest that the Germans didn't keep track of their rolling stock is laughable. Those train records are crucial to knowing how many deportees were sent to Treblinka and how many left. Those records disappeared. Records from Majdanek are fragmentary. There's one record as proof that the deportees who claimed to have left Treblinka were truthful. There is further corroboration of that from USHMM records.
There are no other records at Majdanek that correspond to the number of deportees who claimed to have been sent there. None of the records that Leszcynska claimed to have found corroborate the stories of the Treblinka deportees which indicates that there were other transports of deportees from Treblinka. There are no train records from Budzyn but it's known that some deportees were sent there from Treblinka.
The point being that the number of deportees that entered and then left Treblinka is unknown. Claiming that Treblinka couldn't be a transit camp based on there being only tangential and fragmentary train records from Majdanek is idiotic. The one data set that could resolve that question is GONE. Whether it was deliberately or accidentally destroyed, hidden or just plain lost is irrelevant. What is relevant is that key information is missing. The number of trains that entered and left Treblinka and thus the number of deportees who entered and left Treblinka is unknown.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Aug 16, 2022 15:30:11 GMT
Again another transparently dishonest and stupid attempt at obfuscating, confusing and thus dodging the actual challenge. The same tactic Nessie uses on mass gassings, mass graves and now here with mass transports. Silly, stupid and dishonest behaviour. We are not discussing a vague number of people transported. You were asked to provide evidence of approx 850,000 transported to and ENTERING T2. And you were asked for proof of that number BECAUSE YOU demand evidence of that many leaving T2. [sheesh!!! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ]I have provided the evidence to prove, c850,000 people entered TII. I showed you where that evidence is. The figure is primarily from ghetto transport records and it is corroborated by Hofle and Korherr. They both had over 700,000 arriving by the end of 1942 and ghetto transports show another c150,000 arrived in 1943. Oh boy! More miscomprehension! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐ The ghetto transport records Hรถfle and Korherr DO NOT specify T2!!!!! Bloody hell! How many times does that have to be explained to you b3fore you get it?? Obviously just the letter T in the possibly fraudulent alleged Hรถfle intercept DOES NOT specify T2! Do you understand yet? ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Aug 16, 2022 16:03:17 GMT
Since there is no evidence of the regular mass transports back out of TII of hundreds of thousands of people, does that not mean there were no such transports? No, it does not. That is another quite literally moronic response. It was a simple question, to see what your answer was. Is it possible to have regular mass transports, without it leaving any evidence, from the people who were on the trains, those who worked inside the camps and any documents? It is your opinion, that the evidence provided, is insufficient to prove c850,000 arrived at TII. Zabecki counted box cars and assumed each carried a certain number of people and went by numbers on the box cars. His method was flawed, and the evidence from ghetto populations and transports, along with the specific numbers provided by Ganzenmuller, Hofle and Korherr, evidence and prove the c850,000 figure. The usual range is 700-900,000. You have dodged that you said the camp was used to transit prisoners through it as part of AR and that there is no evidence of those people leaving in mass transports as part of AR.
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Aug 16, 2022 16:04:44 GMT
There is no doubt that at one time the records for trains entering and leaving Treblinka existed. To suggest that the Germans didn't keep track of their rolling stock is laughable. Those train records are crucial to knowing how many deportees were sent to Treblinka and how many left. Those records disappeared. Records from Majdanek are fragmentary. There's one record as proof that the deportees who claimed to have left Treblinka were truthful. There is further corroboration of that from USHMM records. There are no other records at Majdanek that correspond to the number of deportees who claimed to have been sent there. None of the records that Leszcynska claimed to have found corroborate the stories of the Treblinka deportees which indicates that there were other transports of deportees from Treblinka. There are no train records from Budzyn but it's known that some deportees were sent there from Treblinka. The point being that the number of deportees that entered and then left Treblinka is unknown. Claiming that Treblinka couldn't be a transit camp based on there being only tangential and fragmentary train records from Majdanek is idiotic. The one data set that could resolve that question is GONE. Whether it was deliberately or accidentally destroyed, hidden or just plain lost is irrelevant. What is relevant is that key information is missing. The number of trains that entered and left Treblinka and thus the number of deportees who entered and left Treblinka is unknown. The disappearing records you keep on referring to. Where were those records originally from? What transports did they record?
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Aug 16, 2022 16:12:32 GMT
I have provided the evidence to prove, c850,000 people entered TII. I showed you where that evidence is. The figure is primarily from ghetto transport records and it is corroborated by Hofle and Korherr. They both had over 700,000 arriving by the end of 1942 and ghetto transports show another c150,000 arrived in 1943. Oh boy! More miscomprehension! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐ The ghetto transport records Hรถfle and Korherr DO NOT specify T2!!!!! Bloody hell! How many times does that have to be explained to you b3fore you get it?? Obviously just the letter T in the possibly fraudulent alleged Hรถfle intercept DOES NOT specify T2! Do you understand yet? ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ Hofle worked on AR, and he referred to "T", which was the AR camp at Treblinka, which was TII. Korherr got his figure from Hofle and he refers to camps in the Central Government, which is where AR took place. A parallel operation ran in the Warthegau, which was where the death camp Chelmno was located, which Korherr records as a separate number (145,301) in part V, section 4 of the report. Korherr confirmed his report was written by him, which confirms the figure used in the Hofle Telegram. Ganzenmuller refers to Treblinka and Stroop to TII. The Fahrplanordnungs refer to Treblinka.
We are again discussing the evidence for mass transports to TII, because there is no evidence of mass transports back out of the camp. Any rational person would question why that is. You dodge.
|
|
Turnagain
โ๏ธ
๐๐ผ๐ป๐ผ๐ฟ๐ฎ๐๐๐
Posts: 2,302
|
Post by Turnagain on Aug 16, 2022 17:15:12 GMT
Nessie wrote:
They aren't "disappearing records". They have disappeared. I'm referring to the records of trains that entered and left Treblinka. The record of train number, the number of railcars, the route, stops, freight/passenger manifests. What is called the train schedule that details what the train did traveling from point A to point B. Are you trying to suggest that such records don't and didn't ever exist? That the Germans didn't bother to keep track of their rolling stock?
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Aug 16, 2022 19:02:45 GMT
Nessie wrote: They aren't "disappearing records". They have disappeared. I'm referring to the records of trains that entered and left Treblinka. Records made where and by who? No. I have asked you before and you failed to produce an example of the type of record you mean. So, again, please link to an example of the type of document you are referring to. For all I know, it was standard not to keep any records of the train's number, number of cars it pulled, the route etc, because very quickly, there would be millions of records to archive and store. So lots of records would be destroyed. Once a delivery has been made, a record is kept of the delivery, but would the record of which trains, how many cars, its route etc be kept? Was it standard to keep a record of exactly where locomotive ABC went each day? The surviving Fahrplanordnungs show the trains timetables and I can see why timetables survived, as that is a record deliveries were made. The ghetto records, of how many people left on each train survive, as they also show the delivery of people. But would the details of the actual train that was used, be kept? There is evidence of records at Majdanek of arrivals from TII. That is what matters, not exactly which train was used. I still cannot work out what records you say are missing. The records of the ghetto transports to TII and where those trains went afterwards are not missing. The records of arrivals from TII at other camps such as Majdanek are in part unknown, but we also know some exist. There were no other transports, so what is missing?
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Aug 16, 2022 19:59:18 GMT
1. Did Olszuk mention mass transports of hundreds of thousands of people back out of TII? No, he did not. Nessie is giving the impression or has the impression that the transports designated "Treblinka" went to this place on the spur line (the current location with the monument); they all went there but no one seen to leave. This is supported by spies (trained liars) like the stationmaster Zabecki. Nothing untoward was seen by Olszuk as you mentioned. The spur line had to service both TI and TII on a regular basis with supplies and people, also to extrude the material from the quarry. In the past the service trains always had carriages of some sort for people. These trains would pull out and then head towards Siedlce with only some people disembarking at the camps. Along the Malkinia Siedlce line there were other camps, most noted the notorious death camp Kosow Podlaski about 10 km from the current TII. The train would have continued to Siedlce with its cargo of people and rocks whatever and head to Lukow then Brest eastwards. The term Treblinka referred to the camps as well as the exit point of the General Government; Nessie is trying to force it down everyone's throat that it refers to a single camp. He refuses to acknowledge anything that disagrees with his view.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Aug 16, 2022 20:13:30 GMT
Oh boy! More miscomprehension! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐ The ghetto transport records, Hรถfle and Korherr DO NOT specify T2!!!!! Bloody hell! How many times does that have to be explained to you b3fore you get it?? Obviously just the letter T in the possibly fraudulent alleged Hรถfle intercept DOES NOT specify T2! Do you understand yet? ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คฆโโ๏ธ Hofle worked on AR, and he referred to "T", which was the AR camp at Treblinka, which was TII... Oh boy! More moronic, true-believer moonshine. So basically you believe it so for you itโs true! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! A big, rousing Holyhoax hallelujah! Keep the faith Nessie. Donโt let reason, empirical evidence, logic and facts get in your way. ๐
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Aug 16, 2022 22:05:11 GMT
Hofle worked on AR, and he referred to "T", which was the AR camp at Treblinka, which was TII... The cryptic document by Hรถfle designated the letters L,B,S,T which were SS designated places. Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka were all border towns and villages of the early General Government and exit points; Belzec lost its border status upon the expansion of the General Government. The territory was expanded substantially in 1941, after the German Invasion of the Soviet Union, to include the new District of Galicia. It is an act of faith to assume that the letters in the telegram are the villages or camps.
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Aug 16, 2022 23:07:25 GMT
The records alone prove trains from all over Poland, transported people to TII and then returned empty. That is consistent with gassings, not resettlement. December 13, 1942, Edward R. Murrow of the CBS radio network reported, โWhat is happening is this. Millions of human beings, most of them Jews, are being gathered up with ruthless efficiency and murdered. The phrase โconcentration campsโ is obsolete, as out of date as economic sanctions or non-recognition. It is now possible only to speak of extermination camps.โ From this report it can be inferred that every konzentrationslager was an extermination camp for juden. TII and the AR camps was nothing special. One should consider why any public records of transports are available at all if such secret murders were taking place as a matter of government policy. This would be more top secret than the Manhattan project in the USA.
|
|
Turnagain
โ๏ธ
๐๐ผ๐ป๐ผ๐ฟ๐ฎ๐๐๐
Posts: 2,302
|
Post by Turnagain on Aug 17, 2022 2:06:25 GMT
Nazgul wrote:
Yes, it was claimed that Treblinka was top secret. There was one account of how anyone who even approached the area was shot on sight by the SS. In his book, "A Year in Treblinka" Wiernik tells a tale of how a German woman and her two sons were executed, gassed along with the Jews, for inadvertently boarding the wrong train and ending up at Treblinka. Even though she and her sons were all unquestionably German with proper papers security demanded that they be killed rather than be allowed to return to Germany.
Curious how Olszuk often stopped to shoot the breeze with the guards and bum cigarettes. Curious how the Germans allowed thousands of Jews to leave Treblinka alive to tell tales of Treblinka in other camps but killed the German woman and her two sons rather than allowing them to leave. Nessie explained that it was OK to let Jews leave Treblinka because nobody would believe their stories while the German woman would have been much more credible and the secret of Treblinka would have spread.
|
|