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Post by Hรผntinger on Mar 20, 2022 20:22:58 GMT
Belarus of the past was considerably smaller than it is today; today it incorporates the part of Poland that was annexed by the Russians on; 17 September 1939. After Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union by Reich forces a multitude of camps were set up for jews; At this stage they were judenlager opposed to konzentrationslager, though the function was the same. Here is a map of the ghettos in occupied territory; these ghettos are the judenlagers. There were also work camps. Belarus prior to Barbarossa was a Soviet Republic, the people were obliged to fight the Reich; the jews did this with some gusto but were seen by the Reich as "civilian" combatants and therefore prone to summary execution if caught; this was German law. The German Action Groups, manned by police of various kinds treated these jews as terrorists collectively and took appropriate action with extreme measure. The partisans had murdered over a million German soldiers so the executions were justified to some extent. The result was that a huge swath of Belarussian jews perished; for a million German Soldiers about 800 thousand jews met their fate. linkThis is a little strange as the JUST act reports states: the report goes on to say From this statement it is clear that a huge number of jews were sent there from Eastern Poland and other European countries. This suggestion means that they bypassed the "extermination camps" of Treblinka and Sobibor only to be exterminated further east. Of course there is no evidence of mass transportation to these "Eastern" camps as some might require. Apart from the Action groups there is little evidence of mass murder, though obviously people died in large numbers.
An estimated 15,000 former prisoners of the Nazis still live in Belarus, including war veterans and former ghetto, concentration camp, and death camp prisoners. the report continues to say. As there is no evidence of mass transports to these places, there is likewise to be found little evidence of them leaving, if they indeed did. It is known and accepted as mentioned that the Action Groups (Einsatzgruppen) did shoot a good number of partisans, many jewish; this thread is to discuss what little is known about individual ghettos and camps for jews (judenlagers). There is even a claim Jews were gassed in Minsk though highly doubtful. As can be seen in the map above, there were also judenlagers in Russian territory, which is also of interest. I would like considered posts, not off the cuff comments, such as "where is the evidence" and "where did they go". I would like also to discuss the work camps manned by the Dutch in Kaiswerwald area supported by Jews. |
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Post by Ulios on Mar 21, 2022 7:24:06 GMT
This is the information given from the link above. Jews in Belarus | Date | arrivals | losses | remaining | | 1939 |
| | 375,092
| | 1940 |
| 220.000 | 155,092 | | 1941 | 1, 004,500 |
| 1,159,592 | | 1943 |
| 800,000 | 359,592 |
Of these losses the department does not say what percentage were likely Partisans. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Mar 23, 2022 9:32:41 GMT
This is what Wiki has to say about the camps in Belarus: This is 214 thousand people in 28 ghettos aka judenlagers. Here there is a fine line between ghettos and camp. This is an average of 7,500 per ghetto. If this trend carried on for the 260 konzentrationslager and 70 ghettos as mentioned by the quoted V. Makei ( link) this would amount to 2.47 million people. According to our resident member this was said: According to deniers, no one was gassed at the AR camps and A-B Kremas between the end of 1941 and autumn 1944, which means that by the autumn of 1944, there should have been c2.5 million Jews being accommodated somewhere. Where was that somewhere? I think the answers lay in the obvious.  |
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Post by Nessie on Mar 23, 2022 10:21:31 GMT
This is what Wiki has to say about the camps in Belarus: This is 214 thousand people in 28 ghettos aka judenlagers. Here there is a fine line between ghettos and camp. This is an average of 7,500 per ghetto. If this trend carried on for the 260 konzentrationslager and 70 ghettos as mentioned by the quoted V. Makei ( link) this would amount to 2.47 million people. According to our resident member this was said: According to deniers, no one was gassed at the AR camps and A-B Kremas between the end of 1941 and autumn 1944, which means that by the autumn of 1944, there should have been c2.5 million Jews being accommodated somewhere. Where was that somewhere? I think the answers lay in the obvious. No it is not obvious. According to the Wiki source you use, the 214,000 people in 28 ghettos is in 1941. Wiki then goes on to reference the Holocaust by bullets, as the Einsatzgruppen shot Jews, along with partisans and Communists, as enemies of the Reich. Wiki states
"In the Holocaust by bullets, no less than 800,000 Jews perished in the territory of modern-day Belarus"
Korherr reported drops in the Jewish population in the east from March 1939 to the end of 1942 of 790,000 to 233,210.
You fail to take into account that the Nazi policy was to rid the east of the Jews and not use it to accommodate millions more Jews from all over Europe.
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Post by Ulios on Mar 23, 2022 10:42:53 GMT
No it is not obvious. According to the Wiki source you use, the 214,000 people in 28 ghettos is in 1941. Wiki then goes on to reference the Holocaust by bullets, as the Einsatzgruppen shot Jews, along with partisans and Communists, as enemies of the Reich. Your rebuttal is expected. It is well known that thousand of jews were forced in columns from Reich territory to Soviet territory during that period. It is however, a fact that the Germans had 260 + camps in Belarus alone as mentioned which is after the invasion obviously. Barbarossa was in June 941; if the Einsatz groups were going to kill all the jews there would be little point in building all these bloody camps. It was mentioned there is a fine line between ghetto and konzentrationslager; it was an administrative nicety for the Germans own purpose. The German policy was to rid the East of partizans, many who were jewish; they did this effectively. Those camps were set up full of people away from Einsatz interference; in fact they were an oasis of sorts. 800 thousand partisans may have been shot, a small number in comparison to the German murders. The camps held the rest from the West it would seem. You cannot escape the fact that there were 260+ camps in Belarus Ostland full of people. The Reich would not build camps to remain empty, except perhaps in your weird world. |
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Post by Nessie on Mar 23, 2022 11:02:37 GMT
No it is not obvious. According to the Wiki source you use, the 214,000 people in 28 ghettos is in 1941. Wiki then goes on to reference the Holocaust by bullets, as the Einsatzgruppen shot Jews, along with partisans and Communists, as enemies of the Reich. Your rebuttal is expected. It is well known that thousand of jews were forced in columns from Reich territory to Soviet territory during that period. It is however, a fact that the Germans had 260 + camps in Belarus alone as mentioned which is after the invasion obviously. Barbarossa was in June 941; if the Einsatz groups were going to kill all the jews there would be little point in building all these bloody camps. It was mentioned there is a fine line between ghetto and konzentrationslager; it was an administrative nicety for the Germans own purpose. The German policy was to rid the East of partizans, many who were jewish; they did this effectively. Those camps were set up full of people away from Einsatz interference; in fact they were an oasis of sorts. 800 thousand partisans may have been shot, a small number in comparison to the German murders. The camps held the rest from the West it would seem. You cannot escape the fact that there were 260+ camps in Belarus Ostland full of people. The Reich would not build camps to remain empty, except perhaps in your weird world. You have shown evidence of 260+ camps open in 1941. Now show how many were still open in 1944. |
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Post by mrolonzo on Mar 23, 2022 14:22:17 GMT
Your rebuttal is expected. It is well known that thousand of jews were forced in columns from Reich territory to Soviet territory during that period. It is however, a fact that the Germans had 260 + camps in Belarus alone as mentioned which is after the invasion obviously. Barbarossa was in June 941; if the Einsatz groups were going to kill all the jews there would be little point in building all these bloody camps. It was mentioned there is a fine line between ghetto and konzentrationslager; it was an administrative nicety for the Germans own purpose. The German policy was to rid the East of partizans, many who were jewish; they did this effectively. Those camps were set up full of people away from Einsatz interference; in fact they were an oasis of sorts. 800 thousand partisans may have been shot, a small number in comparison to the German murders. The camps held the rest from the West it would seem. You cannot escape the fact that there were 260+ camps in Belarus Ostland full of people. The Reich would not build camps to remain empty, except perhaps in your weird world. You have shown evidence of 260+ camps open in 1941. Now show how many were still open in 1944. What do you mean? In 44 the Soviets were already further west. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Mar 23, 2022 19:38:56 GMT
You have shown evidence of 260+ camps open in 1941. Now show how many were still open in 1944. What do you mean? In 44 the Soviets were already further west. This obvious fact was mentioned by Ulios: You knew nothing of these camps until we told you in the old forum; until then you only knew of Trostenets and a few ghettos. You were not even aware of the first transport leaving Warsaw going to Bobruysk. Of course those camps closed before the Soviet advance, no idiot commandant is going to sit there while the Russkis come to sup vodka with him. This was ignored with the following Millions of Jews being marched west in 1945 would leave a lot of evidence which would have been found by now. Are you part of the investigation to find evidence? If so, what are you doing to find evidence? There are several parts to Nessie that needs mentioning. Firstly he ignores information given, carrying on with his spiel or mantra at every turn. Nessie has asked the question "where did they go" millions of times (no exaggeration most likely) to which an answer is given; the camps of Ostland and perhaps Ukraine. He has not realized that Germans do not build the 260 + camps (in Belarus) just to shoot the inmates in the woods; bullets are much cheaper than camps. This could have been done while in the ghettos. He is also confounding the issue of Einsatgruppe activity against partisans, many Jewish with the evacuated jews. The Jews of Belarus were Soviet, being members of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic. (Byelorussian SSR); they were fighting to the death for their country. Lumping all Jews in together as being a common enemy is the ploy of much of this apparent hoax or misunderstanding. Einsatz B following the Wehrmacht into Belarus. In the fall of 1941, it operated largely west of Smolensk in eastern Belarus. The actions of this police unit can be seen as Actions against Functionaries, Agents, Saboteurs, and Jews; sadly the Jews of the area were ordered to fight to the last man by Soviet Dictator Josef Stalin. Due to the huge amount of damage the partisans caused little mercy was given. The current jews think the Einsatgruppen were just about them, like WWII I guess; such is their ethnocentric world view. Nessie other main issue is that after "where did they go" repeat, he then asks, "where and when did they leave"; this is an infinite regression of questions. At this stage I am more interested in those camps, the staff and the conditions. Where did the people work, were they treated well. Germans do not build multi million dollars camps just to shoot the inmates; the SS were too short of cash for that nonsense. It was clearly mentioned by Ulios that this arrogant person had no idea these camps existed; he was content with the few camps mentioned in Wikipedia, satisfying his lust for dead jews. When the 600 camps of Ostland were mentioned there is a nose dive into chronology which is confusing him more than anyone else. I am close to 100% certain these Belarus camps and those in the Kaiswerwald held all of the Jews transited acoss the border after being processed through the camps of the General Government. This was mentioned by Korherr. An area being Judenfei means the jews are no longer on the street and can be put into camps. Judenrein is a different concept, which means totally free of them. Judenfrei is a concept that means "free of jewish influence" more than their physical presence. While jews were put to use in the shale oil fields, building roads, telegraph poles etc, no place was judenrein, except perhaps Berlin and other German cities. Those camps existed in Belarus from 1941 until just prior to the Soviet Advance west. What happened to them is important. To blatantly asked the questions Nessie does when he had no idea of their existence until we told him is asinine. A real historian would assist in finding the answers; it is interesting. |
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Post by Nessie on Mar 24, 2022 12:55:42 GMT
What do you mean? In 44 the Soviets were already further west. This obvious fact was mentioned by Ulios: You knew nothing of these camps until we told you in the old forum; until then you only knew of Trostenets and a few ghettos. You were not even aware of the first transport leaving Warsaw going to Bobruysk. Of course those camps closed before the Soviet advance, no idiot commandant is going to sit there while the Russkis come to sup vodka with him. This was ignored with the following Millions of Jews being marched west in 1945 would leave a lot of evidence which would have been found by now. Are you part of the investigation to find evidence? If so, what are you doing to find evidence? There are several parts to Nessie that needs mentioning. Firstly he ignores information given, carrying on with his spiel or mantra at every turn. Nessie has asked the question "where did they go" millions of times (no exaggeration most likely) to which an answer is given; the camps of Ostland and perhaps Ukraine. There is no evidence of over a million Jews having been transported from the AR camps to camps in the Ostland and Ukraine by the end of 1943. Those known to have left the AR camps, were transported to labour camps in Poland; Majdanek, Budzyn, Poniatowa and A-B. There is no evidence of any transports from the AR camps to camps east whilst the AR camps were open, 1942-3. That camps had been set up in 1941 in Belarus and other former Soviet territories in the east, does not mean that by the end of 1943 they were now full of Jews transported there from the AR camps. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Mar 24, 2022 19:53:24 GMT
Those known to have left the AR camps, were transported to labour camps in Poland; Majdanek, Budzyn, Poniatowa and A-B. There is no evidence of any transports from the AR camps to camps east whilst the AR camps were open, 1942-3. That camps had been set up in 1941 in Belarus and other former Soviet territories in the east, does not mean that by the end of 1943 they were now full of Jews transported there from the AR camps. It seems this thread is about the Jews in Belarus, what was then the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic (Byelorussian SSR), it is not about the Transports from AR camps. The link from JUST above states: Korherr states the following in his section titled "V. THE EVACUATION OF THE JEWS"It is clear from this report that jews transited to the Russian East (white Russia). Korherr only mentions camps, not specific camps except to say they were in the General Government area. The fact that the number is identical to the Hรถfle telgram does not mean that these were the camps the people transited through; that could be another discussion in the thread AR camps. Both Korherr and the US Dept of Justice state that Jews were sent to white Russia; in addition there were: In all of Ostland there were considerably more camps and ghettos as the map above indicates. This thread is about the camps of Belarus, Ostland and Ukraine. |
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Post by Nessie on Mar 24, 2022 20:13:43 GMT
Korherr reported the Jewish population of the eastern territories dropped from 790,000 in 1939 to 233,210 at the end of 1942. If the camps were being filled, that population would go up, not down.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Mar 24, 2022 20:40:59 GMT
Korherr reported the Jewish population of the eastern territories dropped from 790,000 in 1939 to 233,210 at the end of 1942. If the camps were being filled, that population would go up, not down. The camps were there and not empty, that is a fact that must be accepted; However Korherr did say this: Excess mortality as calculated by Ulios is counted as departure. Ulios from memory calculated 1.9 million as a mortality figure; there being no births to replace the natural attrition. Korherr said: (strange there is a scarcity of births at a time when the world Jewish population is apparantly sky rocketing according to the JLC) The camp system, a part of this discourse is also into Russian Territory not just Belarus. The Reichskommissariat Ostland (RKO) was established by Nazi Germany in 1941 during World War II. It became the civilian occupation regime in the western part of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic. The Eastern Part is where Korherr claims the people were evacuated to, as well as parts of occupied Russia for a brief period, this was not Reich territory but occupied land.  |
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Post by Nessie on Mar 25, 2022 8:53:05 GMT
What was the Jewish population of the camps in Belarus at the end of 1943?
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Post by Ulios on Mar 25, 2022 9:41:47 GMT
What was the Jewish population of the camps in Belarus at the end of 1943? instead of asking baseless questions, please assist by putting some acumen into the issue. I think it was mentioned this was work in progress by Nazgul. It is not Belarus Ostland that is the issue if you read the information, it is Eastern Belarus and the Russian territory which is of interest; these were not territories of the Reich and so the Korherr statistics as you mentioned do not apply. This is indeed the Russian East. White Russian east provinces. |
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Post by Nessie on Mar 25, 2022 9:44:35 GMT
What was the Jewish population of the camps in Belarus at the end of 1943? instead of asking baseless questions, please assist by putting some acumen into the issue. I think it was mentioned this was work in progress by Nazgul. It is not Belarus Ostland that is the issue if you read the information, it is Eastern Belarus and the Russian territory which is of interest; these were not territories of the Reich and so the Korherr statistics as you mentioned do not apply. This is indeed the Russian East. White Russian east provinces. OK, so what Nazi camps were there and what was the Jewish population of those camps at the end of 1943?
That is not a baseless question, unless you can prove the Nazis had been transporting millions not gassed to such camps, you have no case.
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