Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 13, 2022 13:03:21 GMT
"In the summer of 1944, a massive Soviet offensive in eastern Belarus annihilated German Army Group Center. Soviet forces then overran the first of the major Nazi concentration camps, Lublin/Majdanek. Shortly after that offensive, SS chief Heinrich Himmler ordered that prisoners in all concentration camps and subcamps be forcibly evacuated toward the interior of the Reich. Due to the rapid Soviet advance, the SS had not had time to complete the emptying of the Majdanek camp. This had allowed Soviet and western media to widely publicized SS atrocities at the camp, using both footage of the camp at liberation and interviews with some of the surviving prisoners.
The evacuations of the concentration camps had three purposes:
1 - SS authorities did not want prisoners to fall into enemy hands alive to tell their stories to Allied and Soviet liberators
2 - the SS thought they needed prisoners to maintain production of armaments wherever possible
3 - some SS leaders, including Himmler, believed irrationally that they could use Jewish concentration camp prisoners as hostages to bargain for a separate peace in the west that would guarantee the survival of the Nazi regime."  (Note the been-there, the AR camps had closed down by the end of 1943, so were not part of the death marches, so claims people left those camps on foot are unevidenced)
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Mar 17, 2022 22:19:35 GMT
"In the summer of 1944, a massive Soviet offensive in eastern Belarus annihilated German Army Group Center. Soviet forces then overran the first of the major Nazi concentration camps, Lublin/Majdanek. Shortly after that offensive, SS chief Heinrich Himmler ordered that prisoners in all concentration camps and subcamps be forcibly evacuated toward the interior of the Reich. Due to the rapid Soviet advance, the SS had not had time to complete the emptying of the Majdanek camp. This had allowed Soviet and western media to widely publicized SS atrocities at the camp, using both footage of the camp at liberation and interviews with some of the surviving prisoners.
The evacuations of the concentration camps had three purposes:
1 - SS authorities did not want prisoners to fall into enemy hands alive to tell their stories to Allied and Soviet liberators
2 - the SS thought they needed prisoners to maintain production of armaments wherever possible
3 - some SS leaders, including Himmler, believed irrationally that they could use Jewish concentration camp prisoners as hostages to bargain for a separate peace in the west that would guarantee the survival of the Nazi regime." (Note the been-there, the AR camps had closed down by the end of 1943, so were not part of the death marches, so claims people left those camps on foot are unevidenced)
I wouldnt just take ushmm on faith here, other reasons would be that the SS were moving out and allowed inmates to head west with them. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Mar 17, 2022 22:51:39 GMT
I wouldnt just take ushmm on faith here, other reasons would be that the SS were moving out and allowed inmates to head west with them. The other reasons are that the SS and the Reich were aware of the atrocities the Soviets inflicted on Jews who could be seen as traitors to the Soviet cause. The Soviet Jews were ordered to resist the Reich at all costs, to form guerilla terrorist groups and basically cause as much mayhem as possible. The Einsatzgruppen were forced to deal with these fanatics who killed over a million Heer. The Soviets murdered 10 thousand jews at Villnytsia and 250 thousand others at Kurapaty along with other countless atrocities. The SS were also well aware of the Soviet mass deportations of Polish civilians, jews amongst them from the Baltic states and their part of Poland. With this in mind they did not wish the jews under their watch to end up in Soviet hands. People were not forced out at gun point like people claim but given a choice; this is why inmates were found at Auschwitz and other camps the Soviets over run. If people were forced at gunpoint to "death march" as Nessie seems to think these inmates would not be talking to the Russian Soldiers in the following photo. |
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Mar 17, 2022 22:55:50 GMT
I wouldnt just take ushmm on faith here, other reasons would be that the SS were moving out and allowed inmates to head west with them. The other reasons are that the SS and the Reich were aware of the atrocities the Soviets inflicted on Jews who could be seen as traitors to the Soviet cause. The Soviet Jews were ordered to resist the Reich at all costs, to form guerilla terrorist groups and basically cause as much mayhem as possible. The Einsatzgruppen were forced to deal with these fanatics who killed over a million Heer. The Soviets murdered 10 thousand jews at Villnytsia and 250 thousand others at Kurapaty along with other countless atrocities. The SS were also well aware of the Soviet mass deportations of Polish civilians, jews amongst them from the Baltic states and their part of Poland. With this in mind they did not wish the jews under their watch to end up in Soviet hands. People were not forced out at gun point like people claim but given a choice; this is why inmates were found at Auschwitz and other camps the Soviets over run. If people were forced at gunpoint to "death march" as Nessie seems to think these inmates would not be talking to the Russian Soldiers in the following photo. Thank you, I cant see an SS unit moving out just wanting to take hostages, its more burden for them in a number of ways. Hostages need to be kept alive. More likely they simply said we're leaving come with us if you like. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 18, 2022 9:08:54 GMT
It is correct that many prisoners wanted to be liberated by the western Allies, not the Soviets. The death marches were so called because of the conditions, where many perished.
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Post by Sandhurst on Mar 18, 2022 18:18:58 GMT
It is correct that many prisoners wanted to be liberated by the western Allies, not the Soviets. The death marches were so called because of the conditions, where many perished. If these people just perished due to those conditions and they walked on their own free will, those deaths and the marches are not really part of "the holocaust'. Perhaps these marches, unknown to most also occurred in the camps of Ostland Nazgul spoke about with the rapid advance of Soviets, with longer distances to walk or march many also perished; many were already weak from disease, lack of food and general apathy. As the evidence of individual camps are no longer available for the most part, they can be thought of as a collective. This would seem the most likely fate of many if not most of the inmates. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 18, 2022 19:53:23 GMT
It is correct that many prisoners wanted to be liberated by the western Allies, not the Soviets. The death marches were so called because of the conditions, where many perished. If these people just perished due to those conditions and they walked on their own free will, those deaths and the marches are not really part of "the holocaust'. Perhaps these marches, unknown to most also occurred in the camps of Ostland Nazgul spoke about with the rapid advance of Soviets, with longer distances to walk or march many also perished; many were already weak from disease, lack of food and general apathy. As the evidence of individual camps are no longer available for the most part, they can be thought of as a collective. This would seem the most likely fate of many if not most of the inmates. Millions of Jews marching west in 1945 would leave behind a lot of evidence, as would their eventual liberation. |
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Mar 18, 2022 23:02:35 GMT
If these people just perished due to those conditions and they walked on their own free will, those deaths and the marches are not really part of "the holocaust'. Perhaps these marches, unknown to most also occurred in the camps of Ostland Nazgul spoke about with the rapid advance of Soviets, with longer distances to walk or march many also perished; many were already weak from disease, lack of food and general apathy. As the evidence of individual camps are no longer available for the most part, they can be thought of as a collective. This would seem the most likely fate of many if not most of the inmates. Millions of Jews marching west in 1945 would leave behind a lot of evidence, as would their eventual liberation. That would be fair comment if those who did march west did leave some evidence, as far as I know they didnt. Same with all the other millions of people who moved around europe at the time. Not much evidence remained. |
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Post by been_there on Mar 19, 2022 8:53:29 GMT
Millions of Jews marching west in 1945 would leave behind a lot of evidence, as would their eventual liberation. That would be fair comment if those who did march west did leave some evidence, as far as I know they didnt. Same with all the other millions of people who moved around europe at the time. Not much evidence remained. Remember, you are talking to the person who idiotically wrote on March 13, 2022: ๐ So... I donโt understand why people think they can have a reasoned discussion with this literally mentally-challenged individual. He has no consistent understanding of the history: he will alter his argument 180ยฐ if needs be. And he has no ability to think rationally. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 19, 2022 10:25:37 GMT
That would be fair comment if those who did march west did leave some evidence, as far as I know they didnt. Same with all the other millions of people who moved around europe at the time. Not much evidence remained. Remember, you are talking to the person who idiotically wrote on March 13, 2022: ๐ So... I donโt understand why people think they can have a reasoned discussion with this literally mentally-challenged individual. He has no consistent understanding of the history: he will alter his argument 180ยฐ if needs be. And he has no ability to think rationally. There is no evidence of people walking out of the AR camps when they were open in 1942-3. There is evidence of death marches from concentration camps in 1944-5. By then the AR camps had been closed. |
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Mar 19, 2022 12:34:24 GMT
Remember, you are talking to the person who idiotically wrote on March 13, 2022: ๐ So... I donโt understand why people think they can have a reasoned discussion with this literally mentally-challenged individual. He has no consistent understanding of the history: he will alter his argument 180ยฐ if needs be. And he has no ability to think rationally. There is no evidence of people walking out of the AR camps when they were open in 1942-3. There is evidence of death marches from concentration camps in 1944-5. By then the AR camps had been closed. Do you mean, someone saying " I walked west with the nazis!" That sort of evidence? |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 19, 2022 14:05:47 GMT
There is no evidence of people walking out of the AR camps when they were open in 1942-3. There is evidence of death marches from concentration camps in 1944-5. By then the AR camps had been closed. Do you mean, someone saying " I walked west with the nazis!" That sort of evidence? That would be witness evidence. There is witness evidence of mass marches in 1944-5 from camps in the east to go west. There is no witness or any other evidence of mass marches of people back out of the AR camps when they were open in 1942-3. Been-there is confused and has shown he does not know much about the subject. |
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Post by been_there on Mar 19, 2022 16:28:17 GMT
That would be fair comment if those who did march west did leave some evidence, as far as I know they didnt. Same with all the other millions of people who moved around europe at the time. Not much evidence remained. Remember, you are talking to the person who idiotically wrote on March 13, 2022: ๐ So... I donโt understand why people think they can have a reasoned discussion with this literally mentally-challenged individual. He has no consistent understanding of the history: he will alter his argument 180ยฐ if needs be. And he has no ability to think rationally. And he will move the goalposts to avoid conceding how obviously idiotic are his statements and arguments. ๐ |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 19, 2022 16:32:48 GMT
Remember, you are talking to the person who idiotically wrote on March 13, 2022: ๐ So... I donโt understand why people think they can have a reasoned discussion with this literally mentally-challenged individual. He has no consistent understanding of the history: he will alter his argument 180ยฐ if needs be. And he has no ability to think rationally. And he will move the goalposts to avoid conceding how obviously idiotic are his statements and arguments. ๐ I did not move the goalposts. The quote you used was referring to the AR camps, 1942-3, from which there is no evidence of mass marches as people left. This thread is about the death marches from concentration camps in the east, as the Nazis fled west taking prisoners with them. |
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Post by Ulios on Mar 19, 2022 18:21:59 GMT
This thread is about the death marches from concentration camps in the east, as the Nazis fled west taking prisoners with them. The 600 camps in Ostland that conceided defeat in the Soviet advance and fled you know nothing about, not many people do. This is work in progress it seems. |
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