Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 27, 2022 11:11:14 GMT
Uh-huh, only Nessie is qualified to pick the fly shit out of the pepper. What's "ropa" Nessie? Why do we have witnesses claiming that the Jews were killed with vacuum? Oh, that's right, they were just mistaken. Why do we have flammable cadavers? Well, what if the witnesses just didn't see all that wood. Nessie has a weak suck excuse for every lie told about the holyhoax. What about the M&H draglines digging the graves? Just another mistake. On and on with Nessie claiming that only he has the ability to discern between the truth and the "mistakes", "exaggerations" etc. of the witnesses. Wasilly Grossman claiming that 3 million were killed at Treblinka? Hey, just a minor mistake in numbers.
The list of klown quality claims of the alleged eyewitnesses is too long to enumerate but rest assured that Nessie can pick out at least a partial narrative for the Jews getting murdered at Treblinka.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 2, 2022 17:13:48 GMT
Uh-huh, only Nessie is qualified to pick the fly shit out of the pepper. No, anyone with any training and knowledge of the historical method and witness interviewing, will find it easy to understand what witness testimony can be ditched as unreliable and what should be accepted as truthful and why. I have explained to you what the methods are, but you ignore them since it would spoil your arguments from incredulity. No idea, where is that a quote from? Yes, it was a mistake, likely caused by the belief that the Nazis had tried to pump the air out of the chambers. It is more likely it was emotive descriptive, a turn of phrase. No, using the methodology that historians and police are trained to use, I can determine what is hyperbole, emotive, misestimation, mistake, etc. It is not difficult. Yes. Secondary sources likely saw the Kurt Franz photos and assumed those were the excavators used to dig the graves. No, anyone who can recognise exaggeration, the use of emotive language etc and understands the failings of the human memory and corroboration, can discern between what is truthful and what is not. Yes, he over-estimated. What is corroborated and what the witnesses who had the best view and knowledge of what happened, is how to reliably determine what happened. That method is simple, but beyond you. |
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Post by Ulios on Mar 2, 2022 20:22:23 GMT
What is corroborated and what the witnesses who had the best view and knowledge of what happened, is how to reliably determine what happened. That method is simple, but beyond you. It seems there is a deliberate corruption of the historical method to suit a personal agenda, not just by you, but by others. The historical method is not scientific but "a method devised by historians them- selves from their own experience to cope with problems arising from the particular body of materials" linkHistorians check the evidence in primary sources and compare it to sources that have already been determined to be โtrustworthyโ. Then, they look at secondary sources that express different points of view to get a clear idea of what happened. In the case of most holocaust issues the evidence is found in eye witness statements (mostly liars) who for some reason are found to be trustworthy. The secondary sources are what Nessie refers to as corroborated evidence. Most of this evidence is manufactured to support the initial lie. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Mar 3, 2022 8:24:36 GMT
Well, Nessie, ropa was the chemical put in the fuel of the engine that made the poison gas that killed the Jews. Of course that was just a "mistake" made by that witness. Just like the witnesses who said that Jews were killed with a vacuum. Just a little "mistake". Almost like the witnesses who claimed that cadavers are flammable. Of course that was just an "emotive description". It's all part of the "historical method" and the proper interview techniques. As part of the cognoscenti Nessie is well aware that nobody, not one single, solitary witness would ever lie about the holyhoax. Any proper historian or police investigator knows that.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Mar 3, 2022 11:02:35 GMT
What is corroborated and what the witnesses who had the best view and knowledge of what happened, is how to reliably determine what happened. That method is simple, but beyond you. It seems there is a deliberate corruption of the historical method to suit a personal agenda, not just by you, but by others. The historical method is not scientific but "a method devised by historians them- selves from their own experience to cope with problems arising from the particular body of materials" linkHistorians check the evidence in primary sources and compare it to sources that have already been determined to be โtrustworthyโ. Then, they look at secondary sources that express different points of view to get a clear idea of what happened. In the case of most holocaust issues the evidence is found in eye witness statements (mostly liars) who for some reason are found to be trustworthy. The secondary sources are what Nessie refers to as corroborated evidence. Most of this evidence is manufactured to support the initial lie. An example of corroboration, in action, is the Judge Lukaszkiewicz run 1945 investigation at TII. He got statements off escaped Sonderkommados, who at that time were the only witnesses, as the Nazis who had worked at TII were not yet identified.
Those Sonderkommados claimed deaths were inside chambers, by asphyxiation using various means, steam, removing the air and exhaust gas. They claimed hundreds of thousands of Jews had been taken to TII, stripped of their all their property, hair cut and killed. The bodies were buried, but that changed and cremations started, that lasted many months, until there was a rebellion. The camp was closed, demolished, planted over, leaving only a few buildings with a guard to stop grave robbing. But as soon as the Soviets arrived, the grave robbing started.
The primary evidence that corroborates the above claims is from; - Polish rail workers and those who lived nearby to TII, who variously between them, corroborate the mass arrivals at the camp, trains mostly leaving empty or carrying property, excavators working inside the camp as it was being built, that after a few months cremations started and they lasted for months, the rebellion, the demolition of the camp, that it was guarded and then the grave robbing.
- the site survey, which corroborated the claims that there had been mass cremations, large areas of the camp had been excavated, the mass graves had been exhumed, the cremains buried, the camp was demolished and planted over and the grave robbing.
- that there was no mass return of the Jews to the towns and cities surrounding TII, which is circumstantial evidence of the deaths.
In 1945, there was corroborating evidence from three different sources, of the Sonderkommado claims. As the years went by, more evidence has been found, which further corroborates the Sonderkommandos; - Nazis were identified as having worked at TII and the 1960s, they, to a man, admitted to mass gassings, graves and cremations. That means the Jewish Sonderkommados, local Poles and Nazis all agree. We also determine that it was engine exhaust, not steam or other means that was used to kill in the chambers.
- such was the grave robbing problem, which kept on unearthing remains, which further evidences the amount of buried remains, that in the 1960s, the site had to be covered over by large concrete platforms when it was memorialised. - in the 1980s, documentary evidence, such as train schedules, the Ganzenmuller Letter and by 2000, the Hofle Telegram had been found to further corroborate the mass transports to the camps, with empty trains leaving.
- the aerial photo taken in 1944 was found, showing how the camp had been covered over, planted over, left guarded and that there were rectangular shapes visible, consistent with buildings and graves.
- in 2014, the site was surveyed again, geophysics finding large excavated pits and the remains of a building, as previously described by the Sonderkommandos, that matched the gas chamber location and construction.
All of the evidence that pertains directly to TII, whether from 1945 or from 2014, all corroborate the claims made by the Sonderkommandos in 1945. Such is the volume of evidence, from completely separate sources, that all courts and historians who have studied that evidence, have all concluded that TII is proven to be a death camp.
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Post by Nessie on Mar 3, 2022 11:12:30 GMT
Well, Nessie, ropa was the chemical put in the fuel of the engine that made the poison gas that killed the Jews. Of course that was just a "mistake" made by that witness. Just like the witnesses who said that Jews were killed with a vacuum. Just a little "mistake". Almost like the witnesses who claimed that cadavers are flammable. Of course that was just an "emotive description". It's all part of the "historical method" and the proper interview techniques. As part of the cognoscenti Nessie is well aware that nobody, not one single, solitary witness would ever lie about the holyhoax. Any proper historian or police investigator knows that. The Jewish Sonderkommados who did not work at the gas chambers, repeated rumours about the process used. You know rumours are not reliable.
The Jewish Sonderkommmandos who worked at the gas chambers said that exhaust from an engine was used, but that people were also just left for hours inside the chambers, where many suffocated. One witness spoke of an attempt to pump air out, which did not work and that lead him to believe the air was pumped out before the exhaust was pumped in.
The Nazis all agreed, an engine was used to pump exhaust in.
The Jewish Sonderkommados, who suffered dreadfully during their time in the death camps, use emotive descriptives, hyperbole, exaggerate etc, which is perfectly understandable due to the trauma they experienced.
The Nazis, who all believed they were doing their lawful duty, were following orders, and who had been told they were part of an important plan to liquidate an enemy, all related what they saw without the emotion, hyperbole etc. That is perfectly understandable, as they did not think they had done anything wrong.
Those who saw and knew the least, understandably made the most mistakes. Those who saw and knew the most, the Nazis, all, to a man, agreed on what happened. Those who suffered related what had happened differently to those who had not suffered.
All police and historians are able to understand how different witnesses behave and can recognise the use of hearsay, hyperbole etc. Deniers are unique in their inability to understand how witnesses behave.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Mar 3, 2022 11:21:29 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Bizarre fantasies and lies can't be "corroborated" by anything.
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Post by Turnagain on Mar 3, 2022 11:27:32 GMT
Nessie wrote:
In that case name an eyewitness who told the truth about the mass murders at Treblinka and link to his account. Oh, wait a minute, I've asked for that before and Nessie refuses to name such a witness. He'll link to his laundry list but refuse to name the witness who gives a straight forward account of how the Jews were killed and disposed of. There will be extreme feats of weasel dodging. Wait and see, folks.
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Post by Nessie on Mar 3, 2022 12:18:39 GMT
Nessie wrote: Bizarre fantasies and lies can't be "corroborated" by anything. Building gas chambers, digging big pits and cremating on pyres are not bizarre fantasies.
Your lack of understanding of witnesses has lead you to think that how a witness describes something is the determining factor in whether they have told the truth and what they describe happened. You think that if a witness makes obvious exaggerations and claims that cannot be right, therefore they lied and what they claim did not happen. In the real world, those with experience of witnesses know that is not the case. Just because a witness describes something in an apparently bizarre way, does not therefore mean he lied and it did not happen.
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Post by Nessie on Mar 3, 2022 12:27:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: In that case name an eyewitness who told the truth about the mass murders at Treblinka and link to his account. Oh, wait a minute, I've asked for that before and Nessie refuses to name such a witness. He'll link to his laundry list but refuse to name the witness who gives a straight forward account of how the Jews were killed and disposed of. There will be extreme feats of weasel dodging. Wait and see, folks. The Sonderkommandos ALL gave evidence that is truthful about the main claims of deaths in chambers, huge mass graves and months of exhumations and cremations on pyres using rails. That they vary in details, make obvious mistakes, exaggerate etc is NORMAL and can be explained. The witness you hate the most is Yankel Wiernik, but what he claimed is corroborated and some of his use of language, such as ears nailed to walls, how the excavator unearthed bodies and the colour of dead bodies, are obvious emotive turns of phrase, not to be taken literally.
The witnesses who give the "straight forward" accounts are the Nazis, who you claim, without any evidence, must have all be coerced somehow into lying. That is why you weasel dodge discussing their testimony, which they freely gave during trials in Germany, run by Germans in the 1960s. Their claims are also corroborated.
You weasel dodge that the Jewish and Nazi witness evidence corroborates, which in itself is compelling, as they would not normally cooperate and agree.
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Post by Turnagain on Mar 3, 2022 12:56:18 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That's not what your witnesses' testimony was about. Remember the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers? Oh, that's right, they don't count.
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Post by Turnagain on Mar 3, 2022 12:59:03 GMT
Nessie wrote:
OK, name some sonderkommandos and give a link to their testimony.
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Post by Nessie on Mar 3, 2022 15:39:14 GMT
Nessie wrote: That's not what your witnesses' testimony was about. Remember the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers? Oh, that's right, they don't count. You claim that the way they describe chambers being hermetically sealed and references to vacuums, means they lied. You are wrong. How a witness describes something works is not a credible way to determine if they are telling the truth or not. Otherwise, according to your reasoning, unless a witness can describe exactly how a gun works, they lie about witnessing a shooting, or unless they can explain how a car works, they are lying about seeing a car crash. The correct way to determine if a witness is telling the truth, is from corroborating evidence.
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Post by Nessie on Mar 3, 2022 15:41:46 GMT
Nessie wrote: OK, name some sonderkommandos and give a link to their testimony. You have asked me to do that so often, I made a thread for you, which was on the old RODOH and is now on TSSF
Pick any Sonderkommando and I can show you how their claims about deaths in chambers, mass graves, cremations and the mass theft of property are corroborated by other evidence.
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Post by Turnagain on Mar 4, 2022 4:39:05 GMT
Nessie wrote:
OK, start with Chil Rajchman since his claims can be checked against what he wrote in his book. Why is what he writes about the hermetically sealed vacuum/gas chambers the truth? Why is his claim about flammable blood truthful? Oh, that's right, it doesn't make any difference what he wrote, he was talking about "lethal chambers". The burning blood tale is just an "exaggeration" and his tale of piling 2-3,000 cadavers on the cremation grate is just "hyperbole". When he said that the bodies were set ablaze with some twigs he "really meant" that the wood under the grate was lit with some kindling. Yeah, that's the ticket.
IOW, what the witnesses claimed happened at Treblinka is totally irrelevant. The fact that Nessie has no evidence of mass murder at Treblinka is equally irrelevant. Nessie says, "It happened, so there!". Life in holyhoax la-la land.
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