Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 20, 2022 9:44:25 GMT
Nessie wrote: Another deflection from Nessie. It doesn't make any difference if the witnesses were being selected for a trip to a galaxy far away, the fact that they left Treblinka on a train remains. Where's the effing records for those loaded trains leaving from Treblinka? Not all of the witnesses said anything about "death camps". They also said that they had NO first hand knowledge of Treblinka being a death camp. They believed the rumors but couldn't confirm they were true. They were honest in their testimony. They had heard the rumors and believed them but didn't say they had witnessed any murders.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 20, 2022 10:00:46 GMT
Nessie wrote: So, ~300,000 people were transported to Treblinka from the ghettos. That's 30% of ~900,000 people. IOW, 30% of the trains moved 30% of the people. No, I'm not talking about the 30% of the trains that left Treblinka empty to return to Poland and collect Jews. I'm asking for the records of trains that left Treblinka and DIDN'T return to a ghetto to collect Jews. For example, the 8-10 trains that are KNOWN to have left Treblinka carrying passengers.
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Post by been_there on Feb 20, 2022 10:56:54 GMT
Nessie wrote: Another deflection from Nessie. It doesn't make any difference if the witnesses were being selected for a trip to a galaxy far away, the fact that they left Treblinka on a train remains. Where's the effing records for those loaded trains leaving from Treblinka? Not all of the witnesses said anything about "death camps". They also said that they had NO first hand knowledge of Treblinka being a death camp. They believed the rumors but couldn't confirm they were true. They were honest in their testimony. They had heard the rumors and believed them but didn't say they had witnessed any murders. Well done, Turnagain. ๐๐๐ You are excellently demonstrating the irrationality and self-deception that is needed to maintain โbeliefโ in the holocaust mass-gassing mythology. We have seen how this person goes on and on about following the โevidenceโ, yet when presentation of the evidence and the facts eventually gets through the his obstinate โbeliefโ and his denial, then his cognitive dissonance kicks in and he attempts to change the subject! Proof that online defenders of the pseudo-historical H-narrative are not interested in finding out what actually happened. Proof also that in regards to this particular question of placing the whereabout of the alleged โmissing European Jewsโ, online defenders of the H-belief are likewise not REALLY interested. That is why asking about the whereabouts of the train records of those Jews we know were TRANSITED THROUGH Treblinka is not welcomed and is avoided!
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 14:43:07 GMT
Nessie wrote: So, ~300,000 people were transported to Treblinka from the ghettos. That's 30% of ~900,000 people. IOW, 30% of the trains moved 30% of the people. You are weasel dodging that those trains returned to the ghettos, so since the people taken to TII from the ghettos, were not kept at TII for an hour or so and taken back to the ghettos, what happened to them? You know they did not leave TII, you know the evidence is they were gassed. Check the Majdanek, Poniatowa and Budzyn archives to find what records are there for arrivals from TII. You are weasel dodging dealing with the lack of evidence that TII was a transit camp, but you demand belief it was a transit camp.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 14:51:48 GMT
Nessie wrote: Another deflection from Nessie. It doesn't make any difference if the witnesses were being selected for a trip to a galaxy far away, the fact that they left Treblinka on a train remains. There is a huge difference between selections to send only a few thousand people to labour camps south and west of TII in Poland and massive transports of hundreds of thousands of people east for resettlement. You are being disingenuous claiming there is no difference. AGAIN, I have SHOWN you what is ONLINE. The rest will be in ARCHIVES. WHY do you ASK me the same question I have answered REPEATEDLY?
Who are you referring to? Name them. You are back to Helen Schwartz as your star witness. Someone who does not describe a camp like TII, who hid in toilets whilst she was there and thinks TII was a death camp. You need to prove she was at TII. You cannot. Cherry picking testimony that says what you want to hear and ignoring everything else is very dishonest.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 14:59:58 GMT
Nessie wrote: Another deflection from Nessie. It doesn't make any difference if the witnesses were being selected for a trip to a galaxy far away, the fact that they left Treblinka on a train remains. Where's the effing records for those loaded trains leaving from Treblinka? Not all of the witnesses said anything about "death camps". They also said that they had NO first hand knowledge of Treblinka being a death camp. They believed the rumors but couldn't confirm they were true. They were honest in their testimony. They had heard the rumors and believed them but didn't say they had witnessed any murders. Well done, Turnagain. ๐๐๐ You are excellently demonstrating the irrationality and self-deception that is needed to maintain โbeliefโ in the holocaust mass-gassing mythology. We have seen how this person goes on and on about following the โevidenceโ, yet when presentation of the evidence and the facts eventually gets through the his obstinate โbeliefโ and his denial, then his cognitive dissonance kicks in and he attempts to change the subject! Proof that online defenders of the pseudo-historical H-narrative are not interested in finding out what actually happened. Proof also that in regards to this particular question of placing the whereabout of the alleged โmissing European Jewsโ, online defenders of the H-belief are likewise not REALLY interested. That is why asking about the whereabouts of the train records of those Jews we know were TRANSITED THROUGH Treblinka is not welcomed and is avoided! The evidence being presented, that people were being transited through TII as if it was a transit camp, is based on Eric Hunt's discredited claims, that he has admitted are wrong. That is evidence of selections to go to labour camps in Poland, which is consistent with the selection process reported at A-B.
You have rubbished Helen Schwartz as a credible witness, but she is the only witness Turnagain has read the testimony of. Do you think it is acceptable to claim witnesses are credible, without ever having read what they said and without any checking?
I have searched for all the train records I can find and posted them for Turnagain and told him where the records not online are located. You are wrong to claim I have avoided that.
This thread further proves that revisionism cannot evidence, let alone prove the AR camps were transit camps sending well over a million people east.
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Post by been_there on Feb 20, 2022 15:28:54 GMT
Well done, Turnagain. ๐๐๐ You are excellently demonstrating the irrationality and self-deception that is needed to maintain โbeliefโ in the holocaust mass-gassing mythology. We have seen how this person goes on and on about following the โevidenceโ, yet when presentation of the evidence and the facts eventually gets through his obstinate โbeliefโ and his denial, then his cognitive dissonance kicks in and he attempts to change the subject! Proof that online defenders of the pseudo-historical H-narrative are not interested in finding out what actually happened. Proof also that in regards to this particular question of placing the whereabout of the alleged โmissing European Jewsโ, online-defenders of the H-belief are likewise not REALLY interested. That is why asking about the whereabouts of the train records of those Jews we know were TRANSITED THROUGH Treblinka is not welcomed and is avoided! The evidence being presented, that people were being transited through TII as if it was a transit camp... [blah, blah, irrelevant blah, blah based on miscomprehension]...
I have searched for all the train records I can find and posted them for Turnagain and told him where the records not online are located. You are wrong to claim I have avoided that. [๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐]
This thread further proves that revisionism cannot evidence, let alone prove the AR camps were transit camps sending well over a million people east.
This also demonstrates the futility of trying to have a genuine, dialogue with you on this subject. You will not or can not comprehend the simplest point. Turnagain explained it to you numerous times, but you insist on misrepresenting it. I will do you the service of attempting to help you understand it, but I doubt you would concede it even if you could understand it. Focus now: Turnagain has asked you where are the train records for the 15,000 to 20,000 Jews we know were transited through Treblinka. The point being that if those records have conveniently disappeared then this means missing records does NOT prove mass-murder. Can you follow that logic? We know that the โmass-murder by gasโ conclusion can not be applied to these 15,000 to 20,000 Jews. So by applying critical-thinkng consistently, honestly and logically, the absence of train records for the other Jews transported to Treblinka does not mean that they are mass-murdered โmissingโ Jews. SUMMARY: you are constantly arguing by creating a false dichotomy. You are arguing as if there are only two options to explain the alleged missing Jews: i.) either they were mass-murdered in AR camps OR ii.) they were transited East. A โfalse dichotomyโ is a logically fallacious argument. Do you understand now?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 16:00:38 GMT
The evidence being presented, that people were being transited through TII as if it was a transit camp... [blah, blah, irrelevant blah, blah based on miscomprehension]... I have searched for all the train records I can find and posted them for Turnagain and told him where the records not online are located. You are wrong to claim I have avoided that. [๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐]
This thread further proves that revisionism cannot evidence, let alone prove the AR camps were transit camps sending well over a million people east.
This also demonstrates the futility of trying to have a genuine, dialogue with you on this subject. You will not or can not comprehend the simplest point. Turnagain explained it to you numerous times, but you insist on misrepresenting it. I will do you the service of attempting to help you understand it, but I doubt you would concede it even if you could understand it. Focus now: Turnagain has asked you where are the train records for the 15,000 to 20,000 Jews we know were transited through Treblinka. Point 1 - He cannot evidence they were transited through, the evidence is they were part of worker selections, which is a different process. Point 2 - The numbers are half what he claims, if that. Point 3 - I have repeatedly answered his question about where the train records are. Mattogno found records at the Majdanek camp archive, and the records for the transports to Budzyn and Poniatowa are likely in the archives for those camps. I understand missing records do NOT prove mass murder. I have NEVER claimed they do. I agree, missing records are not proof of mass murder. Yes, I understand that is a false dichotomy. They could have been transported, as with the others, to labour camps in Poland, which is a revisionist suggestion I have never heard of before. Until the mass transport of c850,000 people from TII to labour camps in Poland is evidenced, which should be easy, because it would mean by Sept 1943, a massive increase in the size of the camps in Poland. Revisionists run into the same problem as with suggestions of resettlement in the east, no evidence of it happening, which is extraordinary considering how many people it involved. To move and accommodate so many people would leave lots of records (not just transport records), witnesses and massive camps to accommodate them all. That would be easy to evidence, if it happened.
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Post by been_there on Feb 20, 2022 16:41:18 GMT
This also demonstrates the futility of trying to have a genuine, dialogue with you on this subject. You will not or can not comprehend the simplest point. Turnagain explained it to you numerous times, but you insist on misrepresenting it. I will do you the service of attempting to help you understand it, but I doubt you would concede it even if you could understand it. Focus now: Turnagain has asked you where are the train records for the 15,000 to 20,000 Jews we know were transited through Treblinka. Point 1 - He cannot evidence they were transited through, the evidence is they were part of worker selections, which is a different process. Point 2 - The numbers are half what he claims, if that. It makes no difference what the โprocessโ was or what the exact numbers are. ๐ You still arenโt getting it! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ Presumably because you are still applying your โtransported East OR mass-murderedโ false dichotomy. Whatever the process was โ whether they were โselectedโ for work or not โ is irrelevant. The relevant point is that those train records of those people are MISSING!!!! Train records of people whom we all ACCEPT were transported to Treblinka and after a short stay were transported elsewhere โ ALIVE โ are missing. I donโt often read your replies. I regard it as a waste of time. I only skim-read them in Turnagainโs replies to you. So I havenโt seen that. And I doubt it is true. I assume that you believe you have answered it, because you donโt understand what is being asked. I.e. miscomprehension again. Then why are you asking for evidence from train records of all the allegedly missing Jews transported elsewhere, claiming without it the evidence shows they were murdered in Treblinka? You keep arguing that BECAUSE you claim records show trains went back to Warsaw empty.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 17:15:06 GMT
Point 1 - He cannot evidence they were transited through, the evidence is they were part of worker selections, which is a different process. Point 2 - The numbers are half what he claims, if that. It makes no difference what the โprocessโ was or what the exact numbers are. ๐ You still arenโt getting it! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ Presumably because you are still applying your โtransported East OR mass-murderedโ false dichotomy. Whatever the process was โ whether they were โselectedโ for work or not โ is irrelevant. I disagree, the distinction is crucial to the topic under debate. Worker selections are part of the process reported prior to gassings and are not evidence a place was a transit camp. A point I have repeatedly raised with Turnagain, is that we do not know what records are in the archives, so we do not know if those records are missing or if they are just sitting in an archive. I have just told you what my answer to him has been. He wants to see records about transports and train movements, I show him what I can find online and where the other records are likely located. I am arguing about what is evidenced and what is not evidenced. Gassings is evidenced, mass transports back out the camp is not. I use the lack of evidence of mass transports to verify the evidence of gassings as being correct. My argument is in three parts and all the parts need to be considered together, not in isolation (a mistake Werd, remember him, used to make all the time and now Turnagin makes the same mistake). You also need to understand that my argument is not merely an argument, it is about what is evidenced and what is not evidenced. 1 - there is EVIDENCE to PROVE mass gassings. 2 - there is NO EVIDENCE to PROVE those people left the AR camps. 3 - therefore the EVIDENCE for 1 stands as verified correct. Now, apply that argument to the Warsaw Jews; 1 - there is evidence the Warsaw Jews were transported to and gassed at TII 2 - there is no evidence they left TII as the trains returned to Warsaw empty and there is also no evidence they left the camp by other means. 3 - therefore the evidence for gassings stands as verified correct. NOTE to moderators - I am trying to explain something that I have been explicitly been asked about, so that the debate can progress. I know it references things not on topic, but so do the questions I have been asked.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 21, 2022 0:14:35 GMT
been-there wrote: Nessie wrote: From the Hunt video: Peter Black of the USHMM agreed with Arad. Only a few deportees escaped alive from Treblinka and supposedly did that by force of arms. Nessie declares both of these holyhoax authorities to be completely wrong and that men and women were regularly "selected for work" from Treblinka. He dismisses Sam Kulawy's testimony that a trainload of men, women and children left Treblinka as Kulawy made a mistake about where he had been sent and was in some other camp besides Treblinka as it's hard to imagine what kind of productive work could be obtained from children.
Nessie claims that only 6-9,000 were selected for work. Apparently he dismisses the testimony of another witness besides Kulawy to a trainload of deportees being transported out of Treblinka but doesn't specify which witness. In any event, all of that dodges the fact that trains carrying deportees left Treblinka. There are apparently no records for any such trains while there ARE records of empty trains leaving Treblinka. Which brings us back to the original question of, "Where are the records for trains carrying passengers outbound from Treblinka?".
A more relevant question would be, "WHY are the Treblinka outbound train records missing?". Was it just fortunes of war that those specific records went missing or were they deliberately hidden or destroyed? Occam's razor says that destroying the outbound train records makes the outlandish tales of such witnesses as Wiernik, Rajchman et al. possible. People such as Nessie come charging in with shrieks of, "mistakes", "exaggerations", "hyperbole" etc. in attempt to rationalize those fantasies. In any event, Nessie's rearguard action to justify the fact that deportees DID leave Treblinka via rail is a bust.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 21, 2022 0:58:43 GMT
Nessie wrote:
There is no reliable or unequivocal evidence that gassing the Jews took place. Can the fantasies of hermetically sealed gas chambers and brick pressure vessels be considered reliable? Of course not. Nessie attempts to rationalize these fantasies but the fact remains that the testimony by Wiernik, Rajchman et al. is simply not reliable.
The discovery of tiles and the foundation of a building could have been the shower facility that is known to have existed at Treblinka. That it has been defined as the gas chamber by hoaxsters isn't proof of any gas chambers. Nessie's first claim that the "evidence" proves mass gassing is pure, blue sky bullshit. That he's proven the existence of gas chambers is an unwarranted claim.
Nessie's claim that there's no evidence to support the claims of witnesses who said that they left Treblinka via rail is simply false. There's records from both the Germans and from the USHMM to support the witnesses' testimony. If the situation were reversed, Nessie would be crowing that the testimony of the witnesses is corroborated by the German and USHMM records. His claim that the evidence proves that mass gassing took place at Treblinka is false. The fantasies of his witnesses and the equivocal nature of his evidence for gas chambers proves that.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 21, 2022 2:18:01 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie claims that a "fair certainty" defined as "the 99% level of confidence" is insufficient. Nessie's ignorance isn't my concern. The fact remains that there is credible witness testimony supported by both German records and records and from the USHMM that at least 10-12 trains left Treblinka carrying passengers. Nessie has somehow gotten it into his head that's proof that those were the only trains that left Treblinka carrying passengers. No, that's just proof that trains left Treblinka carrying passengers. The fact that those trains took deportees only to the Lublin district and A-B isn't proof that other passengers WEREN'T taken to destinations in the East.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 21, 2022 9:44:45 GMT
been-there wrote: Nessie wrote: From the Hunt video: Peter Black of the USHMM agreed with Arad. Only a few deportees escaped alive from Treblinka and supposedly did that by force of arms. Nessie declares both of these holyhoax authorities to be completely wrong and that men and women were regularly "selected for work" from Treblinka. Could you link to the Arad quote? He may not have known about the selections. Same with Black. They are wrong. The evidence proves they are wrong. As it stands, there is no evidence to prove Kulawy was at TII. That is based on Hunts list here; studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedIf the Kulawy transport is included, then it is c9000 left TII, but remove the transports that are suspect and it is c6500. Others (at TSSF) disagree again and put the figure at closer to c2000. You don't know they are missing, you have not checked all the archives. If there was a hoax to maintain and Arad and Black were part of the hoax, do you think the witnesses to transports and the records that Mattogno found at Majdanek would have been revealed? The evidence of selections at TII and that not everyone was taken to be gassed was known about since the 1980s. Since then, despite extensive research, no more evidence has been found. Your suggestion is that is due to the massive hoax, but if that hoax could not stop the witnesses speaking out in the Shoah film, then how could it stop further research? If there had been more transports back out of TII, the evidence would have been found by now. That such evidence has not been found, merely confirms that the gassing claims and evidence are correct. Those people were gassed, hence so many empty trains left TII.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 21, 2022 9:46:40 GMT
Since transport records (or lack thereof) were being discussed, maybe someone can provide transport records of those who allegedly transported across the border from Poland (the General Government) into Ukraine or Belorussia (Ostland). It has been mentioned in the past that people were sent by foot or truck, due to the bombing of tracks, railway stations and telegraph lines. The mass transports for people stopped at the GG border, the priority for railway being troops and munitions to the front. Mentioning it as a suggestion, is not good enough, it needs evidence and you have none. I refuse to believe that c1.6 million people walked out of the AR camps in massive convoys of people, without leaving any evidence.
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