Treblinka transports

Nessie wrote:
So, ~300,000 people were transported to Treblinka from the ghettos. That's 30% of ~900,000 people. IOW, 30% of the trains moved 30% of the people.
No, I'm not talking about the 30% of the trains that left Treblinka empty to return to Poland and collect Jews. I'm asking for the records of trains that left Treblinka and DIDN'T return to a ghetto to collect Jews. For example, the 8-10 trains that are KNOWN to have left Treblinka carrying passengers.

You are weasel dodging that those trains returned to the ghettos, so since the people taken to TII from the ghettos, were not kept at TII for an hour or so and taken back to the ghettos, what happened to them?

You know they did not leave TII, you know the evidence is they were gassed.



Check the Majdanek, Poniatowa and Budzyn archives to find what records are there for arrivals from TII.

You are weasel dodging dealing with the lack of evidence that TII was a transit camp, but you demand belief it was a transit camp.

Point 1 - He cannot evidence they were transited through, the evidence is they were part of worker selections, which is a different process.

Point 2 - The numbers are half what he claims, if that.

Point 3 - I have repeatedly answered his question about where the train records are. Mattogno found records at the Majdanek camp archive, and the records for the transports to Budzyn and Poniatowa are likely in the archives for those camps.




I understand missing records do NOT prove mass murder. I have NEVER claimed they do.



I agree, missing records are not proof of mass murder.



Yes, I understand that is a false dichotomy. They could have been transported, as with the others, to labour camps in Poland, which is a revisionist suggestion I have never heard of before.

Until the mass transport of c850,000 people from TII to labour camps in Poland is evidenced, which should be easy, because it would mean by Sept 1943, a massive increase in the size of the camps in Poland. Revisionists run into the same problem as with suggestions of resettlement in the east, no evidence of it happening, which is extraordinary considering how many people it involved. To move and accommodate so many people would leave lots of records (not just transport records), witnesses and massive camps to accommodate them all. That would be easy to evidence, if it happened.

I disagree, the distinction is crucial to the topic under debate. Worker selections are part of the process reported prior to gassings and are not evidence a place was a transit camp.



A point I have repeatedly raised with Turnagain, is that we do not know what records are in the archives, so we do not know if those records are missing or if they are just sitting in an archive.



I have just told you what my answer to him has been. He wants to see records about transports and train movements, I show him what I can find online and where the other records are likely located.



I am arguing about what is evidenced and what is not evidenced. Gassings is evidenced, mass transports back out the camp is not. I use the lack of evidence of mass transports to verify the evidence of gassings as being correct.

My argument is in three parts and all the parts need to be considered together, not in isolation (a mistake Werd, remember him, used to make all the time and now Turnagin makes the same mistake). You also need to understand that my argument is not merely an argument, it is about what is evidenced and what is not evidenced.

1 - there is EVIDENCE to PROVE mass gassings.
2 - there is NO EVIDENCE to PROVE those people left the AR camps.
3 - therefore the EVIDENCE for 1 stands as verified correct. 

Now, apply that argument to the Warsaw Jews;

1 - there is evidence the Warsaw Jews were transported to and gassed at TII
2 - there is no evidence they left TII as the trains returned to Warsaw empty and there is also no evidence they left the camp by other means.
3 - therefore the evidence for gassings stands as verified correct.


NOTE to moderators - I am trying to explain something that I have been explicitly been asked about, so that the debate can progress. I know it references things not on topic, but so do the questions I have been asked.

Nessie wrote:

There is no reliable or unequivocal evidence that gassing the Jews took place. Can the fantasies of hermetically sealed gas chambers and brick pressure vessels be considered reliable? Of course not. Nessie attempts to rationalize these fantasies but the fact remains that the testimony by Wiernik, Rajchman et al. is simply not reliable.

The discovery of tiles and the foundation of a building could have been the shower facility that is known to have existed at Treblinka. That it has been defined as the gas chamber by hoaxsters isn't proof of any gas chambers. Nessie's first claim that the "evidence" proves mass gassing is pure, blue sky bullshit. That he's proven the existence of gas chambers is an unwarranted claim.

Nessie's claim that there's no evidence to support the claims of witnesses who said that they left Treblinka via rail is simply false. There's records from both the Germans and from the USHMM to support the witnesses' testimony. If the situation were reversed, Nessie would be crowing that the testimony of the witnesses is corroborated by the German and USHMM records. His claim that the evidence proves that mass gassing took place at Treblinka is false. The fantasies of his witnesses and the equivocal nature of his evidence for gas chambers proves that.

Could you link to the Arad quote? He may not have known about the selections. Same with Black. They are wrong. The evidence proves they are wrong.



As it stands, there is no evidence to prove Kulawy was at TII.



That is based on Hunts list here;

studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-edited

If the Kulawy transport is included, then it is c9000 left TII, but remove the transports that are suspect and it is c6500. Others (at TSSF) disagree again and put the figure at closer to c2000.



You don't know they are missing, you have not checked all the archives.



If there was a hoax to maintain and Arad and Black were part of the hoax, do you think the witnesses to transports and the records that Mattogno found at Majdanek would have been revealed? The evidence of selections at TII and that not everyone was taken to be gassed was known about since the 1980s. Since then, despite extensive research, no more evidence has been found. Your suggestion is that is due to the massive hoax, but if that hoax could not stop the witnesses speaking out in the Shoah film, then how could it stop further research?

If there had been more transports back out of TII, the evidence would have been found by now. That such evidence has not been found, merely confirms that the gassing claims and evidence are correct. Those people were gassed, hence so many empty trains left TII.