Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 18, 2022 18:35:11 GMT
IOW, you don't have any effing train schedules for 70% of the trains that left Treblinka. You have zip, zero, nada. Get back to me when you have those train schedules.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 18, 2022 19:02:42 GMT
IOW, you don't have any effing train schedules for 70% of the trains that left Treblinka. You have zip, zero, nada. Get back to me when you have those train schedules. You are weasel dodging that I can show schedules for Warsaw, Lukow, Sedziszow, Szydlowiec and Kozienice ghettos, which is over 30% of trains, with a total of nearly 300,000 between them, of people who arrived at TII and there is documentary evidence the train left and returned to the ghetto they came from.
It is no wonder you weasel dodge that, because you cannot evidence what happened to them and the circumstances fit with gassings, not resettlement.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 18, 2022 19:22:46 GMT
OK, let's see your train schedules and their translations.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 18, 2022 19:26:05 GMT
OK, let's see your train schedules and their translations. I have shown you the schedules for Warsaw, Lukow, Sedziszow, Szydlowiec and Kozienice, you can get full translations yourself, but they all show trains with times going to Treblinka and then returning to the ghetto.
That is c300,000 people who were taken from ghettos to TII on trains that returned to the same ghetto.
Stop weasel dodging that is consistent with gassings, not resettlement.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 18, 2022 19:50:33 GMT
Show the effing translations or give it a rest. If you don't speak German, how the hell do you know what the schedules say?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 18, 2022 20:02:07 GMT
Show the effing translations or give it a rest. If you don't speak German, how the hell do you know what the schedules say? It is obvious the scheduling for the train, with the time it left the ghetto, the time it arrived at TII, the time it left TII and the time it arrived back at the ghetto. A ghetto being emptied would not take people on a train to TII and then take people from TII back by train to the ghetto.
Stop your weasel dodging. The schedules provide yet more evidence to prove that full trains arrived and then left empty to return to the city of Warsaw and towns of Lukow, Sedziszow, Szydlowiec and Kozienice, as each ghetto was emptied. There is no evidence those people left TII and were transported elsewhere.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 18, 2022 20:31:23 GMT
May account for one or two trains. It doesn't account for 70% of the trains. Neither have you answered the question of the loaded trains that left Treblinka for the Lublin district and A-B. If there was no intent to hide the fact that deportees did in fact leave Treblinka, why are such schedules missing?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 19, 2022 11:11:21 GMT
May account for one or two trains. It doesn't account for 70% of the trains. Neither have you answered the question of the loaded trains that left Treblinka for the Lublin district and A-B. If there was no intent to hide the fact that deportees did in fact leave Treblinka, why are such schedules missing? I have answered your questions. One of your tactics is to ask me the same question even after it has been answered.
You have claimed the transport of 2% of those who arrived is sufficient to suggest TII was functioning as a transit camp. But I have proved, with schedules, at least 30% of trains left empty to go back to the towns where ghettos were located, as those ghettos were emptied. That means c300,000 people arrived on trains that left empty. That is far more evidence than you have to suggest TII was functioning as a death camp. It also explains why only a tiny number of people can be evidenced to have left.
You weasel dodge that there is far more evidence of TII as a death camp that had worker selections, than it functioned as a transit camp.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 19, 2022 12:19:41 GMT
Uh-huh, and you claim that a half dozen tiny little unidentified bone shards are "everdence" of 2,000-2,500 tons of cremains and some irregularly shaped little holes in the ground are proof of the giant mass graves.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 19, 2022 12:46:19 GMT
Uh-huh, and you claim that a half dozen tiny little unidentified bone shards are "everdence" of 2,000-2,500 tons of cremains What was found during the walk over survey is merely a small part of the evidence of mass cremations. Multiple excavations, including a pit 26m long, 17m, at least 4m deep and another FIVE pits nearby to that one which are of a similar size and may be bigger, because the memorial prevents a full survey, are proof the Nazis were excavating large areas of TII, which then fits with the evidence they were used as mass graves. You are going off topic here, stick to the movement of Jews and you are again weasel dodging that at least 30% of all transports to TII show trains that left places with ghettos and those trains returned to the same place. That amounts to c300,000 people who arrived on trains that left to go back to where they came from. That contradicts claims of, they were transited onwards. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 19, 2022 13:37:10 GMT
A more detailed discussion about the transports that shuttled back and forth between Polish ghettos and TII; storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/8d466f70b39d43d99fa91f44cfae6966"Scheduled to depart on September 30, 1942 from the Polish town of Sedziszow, the train, according to the scheduling order, wends its way with agonizing slowness towards Treblinka... From the scheduling order, we can see that the empty train (Leerzug) is sent to another community: Szydลowiec." "They shipped the Jews of this community through the cities of Radom, Deblin, Lukow, Siedlce, and to Treblinka, as we see from the scheduling order. The train then returns to Szydลowiec, and again Jews are put in freight cars, and sent, via the same route, to Treblinka. Then the train returns to another town: Kozienice. And the process is repeated. The Nazis send the Jews to Treblinka, and kill them there. Then the train, with its empty freight cars, drives to Czฤstochowa, arriving on September 29. 1942. In its very last sentence, Scheduling Order 587 tell us: "In Czฤstochowa, the train is to be temporarily parked," and that "orders for its further utilization will follow." |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 20, 2022 2:28:43 GMT
There were about 10-12 trains that were known to have left Treblinka with passengers. Where are the schedules for those trains and others like them? Let's see if I can come up with a "Nessie answer".
"People are easily confused and don't always know where they are, their location at any point in time. These people obviously weren't in Treblinka. They just thought that they were so there aren't any outbound train schedules from Treblinka that show trains carrying passengers. All of the trains left Treblinka empty to return to Poland to collect more Jews. I have evidence of that."
Yeah, that's the ticket, Nessie.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 20, 2022 8:28:19 GMT
Nessie wrote:
OK, instead of "fair certainty" we can say, "the 99% level of confidence". Now for evidence. First we have reliable witnesses. Not obvious liars that rant about being beaten continually with rifle buts, having their ears nailed to a wall, brick pressure vessels and cremating up to 3,000 cadavers with some twigs the size of toothpicks. Reasonable, believable people say they left Treblinka on trains. Then we have the fragmentary evidence from the Germans that confirms what the witness said. Then we have the records from the USHMM that confirm that people did in fact travel to Treblinka then on to other camps.
The witnesses and the evidence supports with "a fair certainty/99% level of confidence", that the claim of 15-20,000 individuals, including men, women and children left Treblinka via rail is true. That comes to a total of about 10-12 trains. Where are those outbound train records for loaded trains, Nessie?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 9:20:44 GMT
There were about 10-12 trains that were known to have left Treblinka with passengers. Where are the schedules for those trains and others like them? Let's see if I can come up with a "Nessie answer". "People are easily confused and don't always know where they are, their location at any point in time. These people obviously weren't in Treblinka. They just thought that they were so there aren't any outbound train schedules from Treblinka that show trains carrying passengers. All of the trains left Treblinka empty to return to Poland to collect more Jews. I have evidence of that." Yeah, that's the ticket, Nessie. I will explain to you AGAIN
1 - the train schedules showing where trains went to after they left TII, that are on the internet, I have shown you. Those trains cover 5 places with ghettos and c300,000 people.
2 - there are archives which are not online, for example Majdanek, where Mattogno found schedules of two arrivals with workers from TII. It is likely the other schedules are in the various camp and ghetto archives.
You weasel dodge explaining what happened to the people whose trains left empty and that those who did leave, were not resettled in the east, but were sent to labour camps in Poland. There is no evidence TII was a transit camp sending hundreds of thousands to be resettled.
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Post by Nessie on Feb 20, 2022 9:23:13 GMT
Nessie wrote: OK, instead of "fair certainty" we can say, "the 99% level of confidence". Now for evidence. First we have reliable witnesses. Not obvious liars that rant about being beaten continually with rifle buts, having their ears nailed to a wall, brick pressure vessels and cremating up to 3,000 cadavers with some twigs the size of toothpicks. Reasonable, believable people say they left Treblinka on trains. Then we have the fragmentary evidence from the Germans that confirms what the witness said. Then we have the records from the USHMM that confirm that people did in fact travel to Treblinka then on to other camps. The witnesses and the evidence supports with "a fair certainty/99% level of confidence", that the claim of 15-20,000 individuals, including men, women and children left Treblinka via rail is true. That comes to a total of about 10-12 trains. Where are those outbound train records for loaded trains, Nessie? That is evidence of the selection process, not resettlement.
The witnesses you say are reliable, all said TII was a death camp.
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