Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 12:01:59 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Lemme' see if I have this right. The Germans had a law/regulation that all trains that arrived at their destination had to return to their point of origin? A train that ran between Theresienstadt and Treblinka couldn't go anyplace other than Treblinka and Theresienstadt? Gee, no wonder the Germans had so much trouble with their logistics.
OK, instead of calling it a "fair certainty" I can change that to the 99% level of confidence. That suit you better?
What does two trainloads of deportees going to the Majdanek district and one going to A-B have to do with the destinations of the hundreds of other trains that left Treblinka but are unaccounted for?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 12:39:25 GMT
Nessie wrote: Lemme' see if I have this right. The Germans had a law/regulation that all trains that arrived at their destination had to return to their point of origin? A train that ran between Theresienstadt and Treblinka couldn't go anyplace other than Treblinka and Theresienstadt? Gee, no wonder the Germans had so much trouble with their logistics. OK, instead of calling it a "fair certainty" I can change that to the 99% level of confidence. That suit you better? What does two trainloads of deportees going to the Majdanek district and one going to A-B have to do with the destinations of the hundreds of other trains that left Treblinka but are unaccounted for?
You are falsely claiming that there is little evidence of empty trains leaving TII, therefore lots of full trains left TII. That argument, like so many you make, is not logical. Fact is that one document alone evidenced around 30% of trains left TII empty and since other ghettos, like Warsaw were emptying and sending people TII, and those trains left empty, that is circumstantial evidence the other ghetto trains left empty, especially the ghettos that over a few days, sent multiple trains to TII. Add that circumstantial evidence to other documents and witnesses and that volume of evidence is proof the majority of the trains left TII empty.
The only evidence you have are three transports you admit may not have come from TII and for which you can provide no corroborating evidence they did come from TII. You then weasel dodge those witnesses do not describe a camp that marches other descriptions of TII and that those transports went to camps in Poland, so they were not part of a resettlement action sending Jews east.
You admit that all the mass transports you say left TII full of people to be resettled "are inaccounted for". So, why do you believe what is not evidenced to have happened?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 14:16:33 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I'm saying that there ain't no effing records for ~70% of the trains that left Treblinka. Why do you seem to find that so hard to understand? The outbound effing train records NO LONGER EXIST. Essentially we don't know if the Jews stayed at Treblinka and were murdered or if they left on outbound trains. If you have the outbound schedules, the actual records, then let's see them. If you don't then quit wailing, "Where did they goooooo?".
The point that you're trying to obfuscate is we don't know whether or not the Jews left Treblinka on trains for alternate destinations anywhere in the Lublin district or the "East". There's evidence that the Jews left. There's witness testimony that they were murdered. The one critical bit of information that would settle the dispute has gone missing. Your wail of, "Where did they goooooo?" is nothing but a mindless mantra.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 16:18:19 GMT
Nessie wrote: I'm saying that there ain't no effing records for ~70% of the trains that left Treblinka. Why do you seem to find that so hard to understand? The outbound effing train records NO LONGER EXIST. Essentially we don't know if the Jews stayed at Treblinka and were murdered or if they left on outbound trains. If you have the outbound schedules, the actual records, then let's see them. If you don't then quit wailing, "Where did they goooooo?". The point that you're trying to obfuscate is we don't know whether or not the Jews left Treblinka on trains for alternate destinations anywhere in the Lublin district or the "East". There's evidence that the Jews left. There's witness testimony that they were murdered. The one critical bit of information that would settle the dispute has gone missing. Your wail of, "Where did they goooooo?" is nothing but a mindless mantra. We do know. What is evidenced from documents and witnesses, is that Jews arrived on mass transports, they were stripped of everything they had on them, which was then shipped to Lublin for sorting and selling. The vast majority were gassed and the trains that left TII were either empty, or carried an occasional transport to a labour camp, or property to Majdanek.
"As the mass murders started, a base coordinating the transports and plunder of property was organized in Lublin. In the former Lublin Aircraft Factory (Plage & Laลkiewicz) on Wroลska Street, the labour camp, the so called Flugplatz, was established. There were located the main warehouses of stolen property. Some Jewish prisoners selected them prior to dispatch to the Reich. The city housed also warehouses of valuables and money (Chmielna Street), plundered medicines, cosmetics and artificial limbs (the former Keindlโs factory at Wieniawa) as well as the warehouse of valuables and personal belongings on Chopin Street (Library of the Catholic University of Lublin). The concentration camp at Majdanek housed the central warehouses of plundered shoes."
That is not a resettlement operation. That is the theft of everything from people being gassed.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 16:52:14 GMT
You don't have the train records, Nessie, so you DON'T know if the Jews left Treblinka for other destinations like the witnesses in the Hunt video did or if they were murdered and disposed of by the absurd methods described by your alleged eyewitnesses. Finito. End of story.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 17:18:04 GMT
You don't have the train records, Nessie, so you DON'T know if the Jews left Treblinka for other destinations like the witnesses in the Hunt video did or if they were murdered and disposed of by the absurd methods described by your alleged eyewitnesses. Finito. End of story. The Warsaw train record explicitly states those trains left empty, so that is 30% of all trains arriving at TII left empty. Other ghettos also emptied to TII, like Warsaw, so it is reasonable to say those people did not leave to go back to those ghettos, so that accounts for another 60%. The remaining 10% were from camps such as Theresienstadt, but why would the Nazis send people to TII for them to return to the camp they were sent from?
The Zabecki records has trains leaving empty, or carrying property, with a few of the last transports carrying people. Other Polish railworkers speak to mass transports arriving and empty trains, or trains carrying property leaving.
So I DO know mass transports arrived and the vast majority of trains did not leave carrying passengers, because of what the evidence shows.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 17:32:17 GMT
Zabecki and cohorts are about as reliable as a used condom. The shuttle train ceased service to Warsaw once the ghetto was emptied. The Germans also had other trains available to them besides the train(s) dedicated to the Warsaw transport. You know jack squat, Nessie.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 17:49:22 GMT
Zabecki and cohorts are about as reliable as a used condom. The shuttle train ceased service to Warsaw once the ghetto was emptied. The Germans also had other trains available to them besides the train(s) dedicated to the Warsaw transport. You know jack squat, Nessie. You are weasel dodging that you have no evidence of regular mass transports full of people back out of TII going east out of Poland. Why do you believe what is not evidenced to have happened? |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 17:53:44 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I'm talking about the records for trains outbound from Treblinka. At one time those records existed. Now they can't be found. What the hell are you talking about?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 18:01:57 GMT
Nessie wrote: I'm talking about the records for trains outbound from Treblinka. At one time those records existed. Now they can't be found. What the hell are you talking about?
Records from TII itself do not exist. Records of places that sent trains to and received trains from TII survive. None of the surviving records show regular mass transports of people coming from TII. Instead, the record empty trains returning to ghettos and trains carrying property to Lublin, with very occasional trains carrying people to Polish labour camps.
You weasel dodge that the ONE thing for which there are no records (or witnesses or any other evidence) are regular mass transports of people from TII arriving anywhere else.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 18:10:07 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Yeah, no [excrement].
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 18:19:06 GMT
Nessie wrote: Yeah, no [excrement]. There are not just no records, there are no witnesses or any other form of evidence. So, why do you believe what is not evidenced? |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 17, 2022 18:46:33 GMT
So why did those particular records get lost, destroyed or otherwise disappear? Why did ALL of the Treblinka outbound records disappear excepting the trains that were on the Warsaw shuttle? Funny how records act when the Soviets had a handle on them.
You don't have the train schedules so you don't have anything to prove that nobody left Treblinka except the 15-20,000 who are known to have left. Until Hunt sneaked into the USC film archive NOBODY left Treblinka on a train. A few escaped but NOBODY left via rail. Gee, funny there weren't any "witnesses or any other form of evidence" to suggest that they did. Until you can produce those train records you have nothing. Zip, zero, nada and you can shriek, "Everdence" for as long as you want. You ain't got any. Give the, "Where did they goooooo?" a rest, too.
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Post by Agandaur on Feb 17, 2022 18:56:04 GMT
Nessie wrote: Yeah, no [excrement]. There are not just no records, there are no witnesses or any other form of evidence. So, why do you believe what is not evidenced? If you wish to talk about evidencing and mass transports do it on your own forum. It was made clear that if there is no new information leave it and stop waffling. What is speculation and are you speculating the AR camps were 14f13 euthanasia centres? What is speculation is what the historians concluded on the basis of lack of evidence. Those historians, being for the most part jews are not impartial, joining the dots to suit themselves. Much evidence is conflicting such as Jews being sent to Treblinka when in fact they were sent across the border, all 80 thousand jews from Ciechanow. Treblinka did not exist then but the border did. These and other large number of evictees will be included in the Korherr statistics that were compiled prior to Barbarossa. The Polish Jews would have been evacuated prior to Barbarossa; in fact the Soviets reported a problem with the influx of jews coming from the West overcrowding their Polish cities and towns. I think it has been said many times that all camps were 14f13 centres; it seems that these border camps had much work to do ridding the world of the sick and elderly; people who would have soon died in either case. There would be little point in sending the frail to work in the harsh conditions of the east. |
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Post by Nessie on Feb 17, 2022 20:11:14 GMT
So why did those particular records get lost, destroyed or otherwise disappear? Why did ALL of the Treblinka outbound records disappear excepting the trains that were on the Warsaw shuttle? Funny how records act when the Soviets had a handle on them. TII was closed down and covered over long before the Soviets arrived, it was the Nazis who were trying to hide what had happened there. Hunt took his clips from the Shoah film made in 1985. Funny how you try to claim I have no evidence, when I clearly do have evidence as you like to discuss that evidence, and you weasel dodge your total lack of evidence for regular mass transports east. |
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