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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 14:22:57 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I assume that you're referring to trials like the Franz Zeireis trial at Nuremberg. You know, where he confessed to gassing 65,000 Jews at Mauthausen and testified that Kaltenbrunner had ordered him to kill everyone in the camp. You betcha', that really "supported" Hoess' confession.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 14:39:23 GMT
Nessie wrote: I assume that you're referring to trials like the Franz Zeireis trial at Nuremberg. You know, where he confessed to gassing 65,000 Jews at Mauthausen and testified that Kaltenbrunner had ordered him to kill everyone in the camp. You betcha', that really "supported" Hoess' confession. Please link to the Ziereis trial at Nuremberg and his confession.
I was referring to A-B staff who were tried as part of other camp trials in 1945 and 1946;
"SS men from the Auschwitz garrison were tried before American, British, and French military tribunals in the late 1940s as part of the trials of garrisons from other concentration camps. Auschwitz II commandant Josef Kramer, Auschwitz I and Birkenau women’s camp director Franz Hössler, and female SS overseers IrmaGrese andi Elisabeth Volkenrath were sentenced to death at the trial of the Bergen-Belsen garrison in 1945. For their part, the British sentenced 2 Auschwitz doctors to death in 1946 at the trial of the Neuengamme Concentration Camp garrison. In 1945, an American military tribunal sentenced Auschwitz III-Monowitz director Vinzenz Schöttl and Birkenau crematorium boss Otto Moll to death at the trial of the Dachau garrison. The Americans also passed death sentences on SS doctors Helmuth Vetter and Friedrich Entress at the trial of the Mauthausen Concentration Camp garrison, and Auschwitz II-Birkenau men’s camp director Johann Schwarzhuber at the trial of the FKL Ravensbrück staff. A French Military Tribunal sentenced Friedrich Hartjenstein, commander of the SS guard battalion and commandant of Auschwitz II-Birkenau Concentration Camp, and Heinrich Schwarz, commandant of Auschwitz III-Monowitz, to death at the trial of the Natzweiler garrison in 1946."
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 14:46:54 GMT
So, the victorious allies sentenced lots of Germans to death. Eisenhower killed an estimated 1 million in his Rhineland meadows camps. Irma Grese never confessed to anything and remained defiant up til the moment she was executed. What the hell does that have to do with the validity of Hoess' so-called confession?
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 14:53:47 GMT
So, the victorious allies sentenced lots of Germans to death. Eisenhower killed an estimated 1 million in his Rhineland meadows camps. Irma Grese never confessed to anything and remained defiant up til the moment she was executed. What the hell does that have to do with the validity of Hoess' so-called confession? By the time Hoess was tried, there was already overwhelming evidence of mass gassings at A-B. Even though Hoess was tortured and there are chronological issues with his evidence, what he claimed is corroborated and proven to be what happened.
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 15:13:11 GMT
Nessie wrote: Lemme' see if I got this straight. The allies executed a bunch of Germans so that proves that there were gas chambers.
For the Zeireis confession just search "Franz Zeireis confession". There's lots of hits.
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Post by been_there on May 27, 2022 15:50:43 GMT
Here is the actual initial testimony of Höß at Nuremburg. Once the Jewish captors and torturers had coerced the signed confession from him they wanted to get it into the trial at Nuremburg to give it mass-circulation. To achieve this the defence lawyer for Ernst Kaltenbrunner was tricked into calling Höß as a defence witness at Nuremberg. Höß was first asked his name. Often parts of the testimony he was coerced into signing, were read to him. After each part he was then asked if what had been read was correct. Höß answered in German. So much of his testimony is just the word ’Ja’ or ’Jawohl’. The opening remark by Dr. Kaufmann confirms what I wrote previously concerning the very great importance that was given to this testimony from him signed after the torture of himself, his wife and his children. Only people genuinely in denial would seek to avoid accepting the worthlessness AND illegality of this non-credible testimony. ...
Testimony of Rudolf Höß, Commandant of Auschwitz
[Testimony on Monday, April 15, 1946]
Morning Session
THE PRESIDENT: Stand up. Will you state your name? HOESS (Witness): Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Höss. THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath... HOESS: I swear by God,the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing. DR. KAUFFMANN: Witness, your statements will have far-reaching significance. You are perhaps the only one who can throw some light upon certain hidden aspects, and who can tell which people gave the orders for the destruction of European Jewry, and can further state how this order was carried out and to what degree the execution was kept a secret. ...From 1940 to 1943, you were the Commander of the camp at Auschwitz. Is that true? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: And during that time, hundreds of thousands of human beings were sent to their death there. Is that correct? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUTFFMANN: Is it true that you, yourself, have made no exact notes regarding the figures of the number of those victims because you were forbidden to make them? HOESS: Yes, that is correct. DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore correct that exclusively one man by the name of Eichmann had notes about this, the man who had the task of organizing and assembling these people? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore true that Eichmann stated to you that in Auschwitz a total sum of more than 2 million Jews had been destroyed? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: Men, women, and children? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: You were a participant in the [First] World War? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: And then in 1922, you entered the Party? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: Were you a member of the SS? HOESS: Since 1934. DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it true that you, in the year 1924, were sentenced to a lengthy term of hard labour because you participated in a so-called political murder? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: And then at the end of 1934, you went to the concentration camp of Dachau? HOESS: Yes. DR. KAUFFMANN: What task did you receive? HOESS: At first, I was the leader of a block of prisoners and then I became clerk and finally, the administrator of the property of prisoners. DR. KAUFFMANN: And how long did you stay there? HOESS: Until 1938.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 16:01:37 GMT
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 16:04:57 GMT
... The opening remark by Dr. Kaufmann confirms what I wrote previously concerning the very great importance that was given to this testimony from him signed after the torture of himself, his wife and his children. Only people genuinely in denial would seek to avoid accepting the worthlessness AND illegality of this non-credible testimony. .... No one is denying Hoess's evidence was of great importance. Out of principle, I do not use his testimony because of the way it was obtained. However, his claims are corroborated by multiple sources of evidence and so, in general, they are truthful and described what happened at A-B.
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Post by been_there on May 27, 2022 16:06:19 GMT
Testimony of Rudolf Höß, Commandant of Auschwitz
[Testimony on Monday, April 15, 1946]
Morning Session
[continued] DR. KAUFFMANN: ...from 1943 until the end of the war, you were one of the chiefs in the Inspectorate of the Main Economic and Administrative Office?
HOESS: Yes, that is correctly stated.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you mean by that, that you are particularly well informed on everything occurring in concentration camps regarding the treatment and the methods applied? HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I ask you, therefore, first of all, whether you have any knowledge regarding the treatment of internees, whether certain methods became known to you according to which they were tortured and cruelly treated? Please formulate your statement according to periods, up to 1939 and after 1939.
HOESS: Until the outbreak of war in 1939, the situation in the camps regarding feeding, accommodations, and treatment of internees, was the same as in any other prison or penitentiary in the Reich. The internees were treated severely [strictly] but methodical beatings or ill-treatments were out of the question. The Reichsfáhrer gave frequent orders that every SS man who laid violent hands on an internee would be punished; and several times SS men who did ill-treat internees were punished. Feeding and billeting at that time were on the same basis as those of other prisoners under legal administration. The accommodations in the camps during those years were still normal because the mass influxes at the outbreak of the war and during the war had not yet taken place. When the war started and when mass deliveries of political internees arrived, and, later on, when prisoners who were members of the resistance movements arrived from the occupied territories, the construction of buildings and the extensions of the camps could no longer keep pace with the number of incoming internees. During the first years of the war this problem could still be overcome by improvising measures; but later, due to the exigencies of the war, this was no longer possible ' since there were practically no building materials any more at our disposal. And, furthermore, rations for the internees were again and again severely curtailed by the provincial economic administration offices. This then led to a situation where internees in the camps no longer had the staying power to resist the now gradually growing epidemics. The main reason why the prisoners were in such bad condition towards the end of the war, why so many thousands of them were found sick and emaciated in the camps, was that every, internee had to be employed in the armament industry to the extreme limit of his forces. The Reichsfáhrer constantly and on every occasion kept this goal before our eyes, and also proclaimed it through the Chief of the Main Economic and Administrative Office, Obergruppenfáhrer Pohl, to the concentration camp, commanders and administrative leaders during the so-called commanders' meetings. Every commander was told to make every effort to achieve this. The aim was not to have as many dead as possible or to destroy as many internees as possible; the Reichsfáhrer was constantly concerned with being able to engage all forces available in the armament industry.
DR. KAUFFMANN: There is no doubt that the longer the war lasted, the larger became the number of the ill-treated and tortured inmates. Whenever you inspected the concentration camps did you not learn something of this state of affairs through complaints, et cetera, or do you consider that the conditions which have been described are more or less due to excesses?
HOESS: These so-called ill-treatments and this torturing in concentration camps, stories of which were spread everywhere among the people, and later by the prisoners that were liberated by the occupying armies, were not, as assumed, inflicted methodically, but were excesses committed by individual leaders, subleaders, and men who laid violent hands on internees.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you mean you never took cognizance of these matters? HOESS: If in any way such a case came to be known, then the perpetrator was, of course, immediately relieved of his post or transferred somewhere else. So that, even if he were not punished f or lack of evidence to prove his guilt, even then, he was taken away from the internees and given another position.
DR. KAUFFMANN: To what do you attribute the particularly bad and shameful conditions, which were ascertained by the entering Allied troops, and which to a certain extent were photographed and filmed?
HOESS: The catastrophic situation. at the end of the war was due to the fact that, as a result of the destruction of the railway network and of the continuous bombing of the industrial plants, care for these masses--I am thinking of Auschwitz with its 140,000 internees--could no longer be assured. Improvised measures, truck columns, and everything else tried by the commanders to improve the situation were of little or no avail; it was no longer possible. The number of the sick became immense. There were next to no medical supplies; epidemics raged everywhere. Internees who were capable of work were used over and over again. By order of the Reichsfáhrer, even half-sick people had to be used wherever possible in industry. As a result every bit of space in the concentration. camps which could possibly be used for lodging was overcrowded with sick and dying prisoners.
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Post by Turnagain on May 27, 2022 16:27:08 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Ziereis as commander of Mauthausen had the following camps under his command. As commandant he was the responsible person. What can't you understand about that?
I was mistaken about him being tried at the IMT. Goering mentioned that Ziereis was at the IMT but not that he had been shot later. Mea culpa.
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Post by Nessie on May 27, 2022 16:31:18 GMT
Nessie wrote: Ziereis as commander of Mauthausen had the following camps under his command. As commandant he was the responsible person. What can't you understand about that? I was mistaken about him being tried at the IMT. Goering mentioned that Ziereis was at the IMT but not that he had been shot later. Mea culpa. You said;
"I assume that you're referring to trials like the Franz Zeireis trial at Nuremberg."
That is a lie, he was not tried at Nuremberg.
"You know, where he confessed to gassing 65,000 Jews at Mauthausen"
That is a lie, he confessed to 65,000 prisoners dying at the camp, not being gassed.
According to you, mistakes are lies.
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Post by Turnagain on May 28, 2022 4:01:14 GMT
I was wrong about him being tried at the IMT. It's extremely doubtful if he made any confession at all. The standard calibers for the US Army small arms were .45, .30 carbine and .30 rifle (.30-06) The .45 was a pistol and SMG round. The .30 carbine is a very minor round and the M-1 carbine was mainly issued to officers in lieu of just a pistol. The M-1 Garand was chambered for the .30-06 rifle which was and still is a very hot round. The Garand was issued to troops such as the US private who shot Ziereis while "trying to escape". There are various accounts of whether he was shot in the back or from the front. Some say that he was dead before the confession was concocted. Three rounds from a .30-06 unless placed very carefully away from the torso will either be instantly fatal or fatal after a very short period of time.
The first source that I read stated that Ziereis had confessed to gassing 65,000 Jews. You claim that 65,000 just up and died. There was a deposition stating that the confession said that Kaltenbrunner had given Ziereis an order to kill everyone in the camp. If you have the one and only true account of Ziereis' confession and death then let's see it.
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