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Post by been_there on Feb 5, 2022 14:08:18 GMT
How ridiculous, impossible — and refuted by current, available, empirical evidence PLUS logic — must a belief-system be BEFORE a cultish believer in it, will recognise that and will realign their understanding back in accordance with clear reality?
Regretably, almost NEVER!!
It takes generations of intelligent, honest, iconoclastic, courageous individuals publically doing so and suffering the consequences of challenging a mass-delusion before the majority with a sheep-like, herd mentality will accept the truth.
And there is always a stubborn, stupid remnant who will never learn.
As we see with the fantastic claims contained within the belief-system called Christianity.
If we strip away the ridiculous claims, the nonsense, the exaggeration, the hyperbole, the physically impossible statements, etc., of the New Testament narrative, we are left with a core narrative of a Hebrew tradesman from the region of Galilee who belonged to a religious, messianic sect who gathered something of a following, who could tell wise stories and maybe was viewed as a healer, but was killed by the Jewish and Roman authorities.
But if that is your view of it, THAT isn’t ’Christianity’ anymore , is it?
I just tried explaining a similar point, on a different topic-thread, to this same person replying above, and it got the predictable miscomprehension and stubbornly stupid ’denial’ type of ’true-believer’ reply.
His replies are always ironic in that they merely provide yet further proof that this person is in the grip of an irrational, emotional, cultish belief in a mass-gassing narrative that at its intrinsic core has physically impossible details. A narrative that its believers refer to with the emotionally-powerful, Pavlovian trigger-word ’holocaust’.
And if you take away those ridiculous claims, the nonsense, the exaggeration, the hyperbole, the physically impossible statements, etc., then what is left is no longer ’the holocaust’.
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 5, 2022 14:09:21 GMT
Nah, the absurd and bizarre fantasies of the witnesses are just lies.
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Post by been_there on Feb 5, 2022 16:07:36 GMT
...Indeed, revisionists burst into tears and cry when asked to evidence what happened instead...
More evidence this person has no grip on reality AND is reduced to increasingly bizarre lying! |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 5, 2022 16:11:20 GMT
Nessie doesn't even know for sure how many people transited through Treblinka. What is known for sure is that there weren't any 30-40 feet deep giant pits, nobody got gassed in a hermetically sealed gas chamber, no whole bodies were exhumed with a clamshell and for damned sure nobody got cremated on the magic Jew barbeque i.e. a grate fueled with some twigs. In holyhoax la-la land, all of that is perfectly reasonable.
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Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,517
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Post by Nessie on Feb 5, 2022 16:21:27 GMT
...Indeed, revisionists burst into tears and cry when asked to evidence what happened instead...
More evidence this person has no grip on reality AND is reduced to increasingly bizarre lying! OK, so how about you produce contemporaneous evidence from witnesses, documents, physical items, archaeology etc relating directly to the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas to prove what did happen inside those places. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 5, 2022 17:15:37 GMT
Everyone has read your weak suck excuses for the alleged eyewitnesses. No rational people believe their claims of how Jews were killed and disposed of by the eeevul Narzis. Your Hofle telegram is dodgy so your claim that 900,000 were murdered at Treblinka can't be stated as fact. Those are facts whether you like it or not. You can shriek "what ifs", "coulda wouldas", "evidence" and "exaggerations" from now til forever but we've heard it all and don't believe it. I posed the question, "Were six million killed in the holocaust" on a social media site and got over 40 replies of "No, it didn't happen". Not one single poster agreed with the six million figure or anything close to it.
If you're going to convince anyone that the holyhoax really happened you're going to have to come up with some seriously convincing proof and you can't do that. Repeating your tired mantras goes nowhere.
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Post by Ulios on Feb 5, 2022 17:59:54 GMT
If you're going to convince anyone that the holyhoax really happened you're going to have to come up with some seriously convincing proof and you can't do that. Repeating your tired mantras goes nowhere. I think the thread is to discuss what ridiculous claims the holocaust supporters will accept as truth. This is not a free for all on everything. Nessie has his own hole for that. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 5, 2022 18:11:33 GMT
Ulios wrote:
Nessie has made it plain that he accepts everything claimed by such as Wiernik and Rajchman. They just "misestimated" or "exaggerated" a little bit or perhaps "misremembered". I can't fathom the depths of delusion necessary to be able to swallow their blatant lies and fantasies but there it is.
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Post by been_there on Feb 5, 2022 18:22:10 GMT
Nessie doesn't even have a reliable source for his 2.5 million. As far as Lukaszkiewcz's claims, you forgot that he said that the giant graves no longer existed at Treblinka. It is widely accepted that c900,000 were... [blah, blah, blah]Yeah and it was “widely accepted” for many thousands of years that a Hebrew tradesman walked on water, raised the dead, changed water into wine at weddings, cast spirits into flocks of swine so that they rushed over cliffs into water and drowned, was born of a mother who was a virgin, and... etc., etc., etc. To argue on the basis of “widely accepted” is ignorant, rather desperate as it is obviously no proof of anything. It is a literally stupid argument. So what we have is another logically fallacious argument. This time a ridiculous appeal to the size of a mass-delusion and it is coming from a cultish, ‘believer’ mind-set that is in denial and must believe to defend the ‘belief’ however illogical and ridiculous it is. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 5, 2022 19:19:08 GMT
Digging a pit AS DESCRIBED BY THE ALLEGED EYEWITNESSES is ridiculous.
Germans building gas chambers AS DESCRIBED BY THE ALLEGED EYEWITNESSES is ridiculous.
Germans exhuming cadavers AS DESCRIBED BY THE ALLEGED EYEWITNESSES is ridiculous.
Germans working out a grate system for cremating bodies AS DESCRIBED BY THE EYEWITNESSES is ridiculous.
Nessie's excuses for the alleged eyewitnesses are ridiculous.
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Post by 𝐎𝐬𝐫𝐚𝐞𝐝 on Feb 5, 2022 19:41:15 GMT
After many years of gathering and studying evidence from documents and witnesses, the death tolls for gassings, not just at A-B, but elsewhere, are widely accepted by historians. Many in the media are lazy and just latch onto older figures. Revisionists just go with what they want to believe in and do not bother with evidence. Another thread has gone off topic and diverted to the "gassing" narrative; this is fine as a one off argument. The thread is how ridiculous a story has to be before it is doubted, not about whether anyone was gassed. Nessie has mentioned gassing and evidencing on multiple occasions which has diverted from the thread intention as expounded by Ulios: linklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinkThis along with the mantra of evidencing and absolutely nothing new to say or add, Nessie is no longer able to post in this particular thread or the board on "fake claims" without it being sent to a moderator first for approval. I have also sent the majority of these posts to his realm where people can continue the melee if they wish. |
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Post by been_there on Feb 5, 2022 21:13:08 GMT
THE QUESTION: Is it possible for a man to walk hundreds of metres out from the shore on the water of a huge lake when its surface is disturbed by wind-swept, storm-tossed waves? Can a human being walk on water like that? What do you think? Is it believable that a person is able to produce multiple loaves of bread out of thin air, in front of multiple witnesses? How about the credibility of this: would you believe that a person could bring back to life someone who had been dead for a couple of weeks and make them get up and walk unaided out of their burial chamber, despite the dead person’s stinking, rotting corpse being wrapped tightly in bands of cloth like a mummy so walking in those bands wouldn’t be possible for a living person who hadn’t been dead for a fortnight? Do YOU believe a person could make such an impossible and extremely unlikely thing occur just by saying a few words from outside the burial chamber? Would you think these ’stories’ are believable? Do you believe that one person could and did do all these physically impossible, ’magic’ things and supposedly others besides? Are you aware that it was claimed and believed that there was such a ’magic’-performing person and that he was ’magically’ conceived in his mothers womb WITHOUT one of her monthly ovulations being fertilised by male spermatazoa? If you DO NOT believe these ’stories’ of non-credible, physically impossible occurrences, then HOW do you explain many MILLIONS of otherwise intelligent people not only fervently believing it for thousands of years, but enforcing their belief upon their children and the children of others. Not only that but punishing, torturing and even cruelly murdering people by burning them alive if they questioned or disbelieved any aspect of these ’stories’? How was a ’belief’ like that maintained for nearly two thousand years? How would it be possible with so many people involved — intelligent, university-educated people — not only over centuries, but across many lands and even spanning different continents!? How could a belief in such a physically impossible set of stories be allowed to be studied and taught at Universities? How would it be possible for the judiciary for centuries to cruelly punish dissent from belief in such a physically impossible set of stories? ______________________________________ THE IMBECILIC ’ BELIEVER’ REPLY: 🤦♂️ There is no intellectual reasoning that can impress the stubborn, cultish, ’believer’ mindset The literally stupid reply that was given to this argument (above), claimed that there was a difference in that the irrational belief in New Testament narratives was in what was and still is physically impossible, whereas homicidal gas chambers, outdoor cremations, huge mass graves were and are physically possible. I’m glad a moderator has removed the stubbornly stupid avoidance, as the replies displayed ignorance and miscomprehension in two ways: 1. the comparison with two thousand years of widespread and institutionalised irrational belief in New Testament physical absurdities was pointing out how it is neither impossible nor ‘ridiculous’ to effect a gigantic hoax involving — and perpetuated by — millions of gullible, unwitting victims and perpetrators of the hoax. The institutionalised Christian ‘ hoax’ can still be studied and degrees can still be awarded at Christian academies, now! But that does not provide proof that the transgressions of basic laws of physics believed by ‘Christians’ actually occurred. The exact same argument applies to millions believing and promulgating ‘holocaust’ absurdities. That the person blocked from disrupting this thread hadn’t understood that point shows an unusual degree of miscomprehension. 2. Arguing that the alleged homicidal gas chambers, open-air cremations, and mass graves ARE physical possibilities, therefore the holocaust mass-gassing hoax is in a different category from the Christian belief in ‘miracles’ hoax, is a dishonest attempt at moving the goalposts. As has been pointed out by Turnagain, it is the impossible nature of how these aspects of the holocaust narrative are claimed by the witnesses AND the believers in this H belief-system that is problematical. Plus the irrefutable, self-evident reality that there were and are millions of believers in these absurdities, so hoaxing millions is not impossible. Belief in unevidenced, physical impossibilities based purely on anecdote is the common factor. SUMMARY: Without these unevidenced, physical impossibilities Christianity is no longer Christianity, and ‘ the holocaust’ is no longer ‘the holocaust’. The miraculous and physically impossible absurdities are common and integral to both the narratives. So... Q. how ridiculous must the anecdotes be before a faithful ‘believer’ will begin to doubt? A. It does appear that for the vast majority of people who have been conditioned to ‘believe’ from infancy, there is no limit of ridiculousness. They need to believe as to doubt would cause too much emotional and egocentric turbulence. For them the issues are psychological, NOT historical or factual. |
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Post by been_there on Feb 6, 2022 12:44:46 GMT
THE QUESTION: ...If you DO NOT believe the [Biblical] ’stories’ of non-credible, physically impossible occurrences, then HOW do you explain many MILLIONS of otherwise intelligent people not only fervently believing it for thousands of years, but enforcing their belief upon their children and the children of others. Not only that but punishing, torturing and even cruelly murdering people by burning them alive if they questioned or disbelieved any aspect of these ’stories’? How was a ’belief’ like that maintained for nearly two thousand years? How would it be possible with so many people involved — intelligent, university-educated people — not only over centuries, but across many lands and even spanning different continents!? How could a belief in such a physically impossible set of stories be allowed to be studied and taught at Universities? How would it be possible for the judiciary for centuries to cruelly punish dissent from [Christian] belief in such a physically impossible set of stories? ______________________________________ THE IMBECILIC ’ BELIEVER’ REPLY: “...Your claims of a massive hoax involving millions of people, multiple governments, universities and journalists are ridiculous”.🤦♂️ There is no intellectual reasoning that can impress the stubborn, cultish, ’believer’ mindset The literally stupid reply that was given to this argument (above), claimed that there was a difference in that the irrational belief in New Testament narratives was in what was and still is physically impossible, whereas homicidal gas chambers, outdoor cremations, huge mass graves were and are physically possible. I’m glad a moderator has removed the stubbornly stupid avoidance, as the replies displayed ignorance and miscomprehension in two ways: 1. the comparison with two thousand years of widespread and institutionalised irrational belief in New Testament physical absurdities was pointing out how it is neither impossible nor ‘ridiculous’ to effect a gigantic hoax involving — and perpetuated by — millions of gullible, unwitting victims and perpetrators of the hoax. The institutionalised Christian ‘ hoax’ can still be studied and degrees can still be awarded at Christian academies, now! But that does not provide proof that the transgressions of basic laws of physics believed by ‘Christians’ actually occurred. The exact same argument applies to millions believing and promulgating ‘holocaust’ absurdities. That the person blocked from disrupting this thread hadn’t understood that point shows an unusual degree of miscomprehension. 2. Arguing that the alleged homicidal gas chambers, open-air cremations, and mass graves ARE physical possibilities, therefore the holocaust mass-gassing hoax is in a different category from the Christian belief in ‘miracles’ hoax, is a dishonest attempt at moving the goalposts. As has been pointed out by Turnagain, it is the impossible nature of how these aspects of the holocaust narrative are claimed by the witnesses AND the believers in this H belief-system that is problematical. Plus the irrefutable, self-evident reality that there were and are millions of believers in these absurdities, so hoaxing millions is not impossible. Belief in unevidenced, physical impossibilities based purely on anecdote is the common factor. SUMMARY: Without these unevidenced, physical impossibilities Christianity is no longer Christianity, and ‘ the holocaust’ is no longer ‘the holocaust’. The miraculous and physically impossible absurdities are common and integral to both the narratives. So... Q. how ridiculous must the anecdotes be before a faithful ‘believer’ will begin to doubt? A. It does appear that for the vast majority of people who have been conditioned to ‘believe’ from infancy, there is no limit of ridiculousness. They need to believe as to doubt would cause too much emotional and egocentric turbulence. For them the issues are psychological, NOT historical or factual. Just to be clear, the comments above OBVIOUSLY are not arguing that “...the Germans did not have the necessary engineering and construction skills to build gas chambers, dig big pits and set pyres”. They obviously did have that engineering knowledge and capability. They were extremely advanced and ahead of other nations in those skills, as is demonstrated by them designing, building and mass-producing the first jet aeroplanes and rockets. Nor are my comments above arguing that building homicidal gas chambers, operating open-air cremations, and digging unspecifically large mass graves WERE or still ARE physical impossibilities. And anyone misrepresenting my argument in that ridiculous way must either be unable to reason and comprehend, OR is arguing dishonestly. I.e. such misrepresentation can only be because of stupidity or dishonesty. 🙂 |
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Post by Agandaur on Feb 6, 2022 19:52:02 GMT
Q. how ridiculous must the anecdotes be before a faithful ‘believer’ will begin to doubt? A. It does appear that for the vast majority of people who have been conditioned to ‘believe’ from infancy, there is no limit of ridiculousness. It appears that this is the core of the thread, how much is too absurd. Richard Dawkins interviewed an intelligent Muslim who really believed that the prophet flew a winged creature into the heavens. Many cultures have confused religious beliefs as "knowledge" putting it on an equal basis to science. |
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Post by been_there on Feb 7, 2022 9:15:01 GMT
Q. how ridiculous must the anecdotes be before a faithful ‘believer’ will begin to doubt? A. It does appear that for the vast majority of people who have been conditioned to ‘believe’ from infancy, there is no limit of ridiculousness. It appears that this is the core of the thread, how much is too absurd. Richard Dawkins interviewed an intelligent Muslim who really believed that the prophet flew a winged creature into the heavens. Many cultures have confused religious beliefs as "knowledge" putting it on an equal basis to science. Yes! And the ‘holocaust’ narrative for both the layman and its priesthood is like a “religious belief”. Most people believe but in actuality don’t really know much about it. They believe because they have been conditioned to accept it as being beyond critical analysis. We have all been FALSELY taught that it is the most evidenced event in all of history. It isn’t. And most telling of all, we have all been conditioned to believe that only ‘wicked’ people dare to question it. That alone is proof it has a quasi-religious status in the minds of most. Those who do study it in any detail, can only respond to reasonable, well-informed, honest criticism of the claims by dishonestly misrepresenting that criticism. That is the sum total of Debbie Lipstadt’s response. And that is evidenced by the blatant lie at the core of the film made of her and Irving’s conflct: viz. misrepresenting his monetary challenge to her in person after one of her dishonest lectures in New Zealand. As we see here and at Skeptics, Dr. Nick Terry, Jeff and all the others NEED to misrepresent the actual revisionist arguments in order to maintain their quasi-religious belief. For them any questioning or correction of certain aspects of their ‘belief-system’ is denial of all of it. 🤦♂️ I assume it is because on some level they must know that the mass-gassing genocide narrative has too many ridiculous and non-credible core details. The mind-set is demonstrated by Nessie misrepresenting what I have written above by claiming: “Been-there has admitted the mass gassing, burial and cremation narrative is physically possible”.When the reality is that I have explained the EXACT OPPOSITE: the eye-witness “narrative” of those three aspects of the mass-gassing mythology in core details have been empirically proven to be physically IMPOSSIBLE! How could a reasonable, intelligent person understand the complete opposite of a repeatedly explained point of view? I think it is because to buttress a belief that at its core has ‘ridiculous’ claims, requires a dishonest misrepresentation of the messenger and their message which is pointing that ‘ridiculousness’ out. It is the ‘Emperor’s new clothes’ syndrome. Which demonstrates that correcting the flaws, deceits and errors in this narrative will take some more years before new generations can reassess it. That is because currently, discussing it isn’t about reaching a factual history, it is about human psychology and the egocentric need to maintain a deception rather than admit being part of colossal mass-delusion. |
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