Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 6, 2022 16:09:52 GMT
Kaye explained about the Nazi attempts to destroy as much evidence as possible, hence visitors to the AR camps do not see gas chambers or mass graves. He did not admit to a lack of evidence, as in there is no evidence.So... the resident, irrational believer asserts that a.) there is evidence at the claimed extermination camps, AND b.) that Ephraim Kaye explained why there was no evidence there (because the Nazties destroyed it). 🤣😂😅 So which is it? Is there evidence of mass-murder of millions? OR Did the Nazties destroy that evidence? According to this cultish defender-of-the faith, the answer is YES to both questions! 😮🤪 YES there is still evidence there at the claimed extermination sites. And YES the Nazties did destroy it all. 🙄🤦♂️ So I take this nonsense reply as yet further proof that attempting a sane discussion with this individual is futile. 🙂 .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Anyone with even a basic grasp of English, will understand, how it is possible to say both the evidence was destroyed and that there is still evidence. Anyone with a basic grasp of the history of the AR camps and what is there now, will also understand. Kaye is stating that anyone visiting the AR camps sites now, will not see the evidence. Instead, they see a memorial. Let's go through a chronology and the evidence that would have been visible at the AR camps at different times; 1942-3, anyone inside the AR camps will see mass arrivals and those people being stripped naked and everything they had sorted and sent to Majdanek. They would see gas chambers, mass graves and later, mass exhumations and cremations. All the evidence was there to see. 1943-4, the camps have been closed and most buildings demolished, leaving only some buildings for guards. The gas chambers were demolished and earth spread over them. The area of each camp that had the gas chambers, graves and cremation sites has been levelled and planted over. Globocnik reported to Himmler in May 1944 that "For reasons of surveillance in each camp a small farm was created...", so to anyone going to the site, it would look like a small farm. 1944-60s, the guards have abandoned the camp sites and the grave robbers move in. In 1945, when the Poles conducted site surveys, they found large areas of cratered and dug up ground that stank and contained larger identifiable human remains, such as skulls, along with ash and cremated remains. The buildings that had been left were either looted (TII) or used by locals (Sobibor). 1960s-1990s, in the 1960s, each camp was memorialised, in an attempt to show some respect for the dead and to stop grave robbing. TII had the largest physical memorial built, with concrete covering the two main areas where mass graves had been reported by prisoners. The exposed remains were buried at TII and Belzec and put inside a concrete dome at Sobibor. The sites were grassed over and now, as today, visitors would see any of the evidence. 1990s-2010s, at various times during that periods, visitors to the sites would have seen archaeological and forensic investigations, so they would see bore hole surveys at Belzec, bore holes and excavations at Sobibor and geophysics and excavations at TII. Vistors would again see cremated remains, ash and the remains of the gas chamber foundations. Present days, all sites are memorialised and both Sobibor and Belzec and covered over like TII, so any visitor will not see any of the evidence. They will not see the remains. That is what Kaye is describing. A visitor to TII sees a site that partially grass and the large memorial. They will not see gas chambers or remains. The evidence that is still at the sites, buried under/inside the memorials, are large areas of disturbed ground containing human remains and the remains of demolished buildings, which cannot be seen anymore, but could be seen at various times over the past decades. The physical evidence is of an attempt by the Nazis to destroy as much evidence as possible, in particular, the gas chambers and also the corpses, so as to prevent body counts and identification. When evidence is destroyed, it can be reasonably inferred that there had been criminal activity. Like someone who burns clothing worn at a murder, or who smashes up a gun and buries its parts. That is why most people would understand the concept of destroying evidence, but that still leaving evidence.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 6, 2022 16:12:55 GMT
Just because he has convinced himself that there should be more residue, does not therefore mean he is correct. The counterargument is that the gassings in the chambers meant exposure for minutes, not hours as happened with clothes, and in between each gassing the chambers were washed, which did not happen in the delousing chambers, and that because of being blown up the chambers have been exposed to the weather.
Plus, Rudolf cannot evidence what was happening inside the Leichenkellers, if it was not gassings.
Right but those objections ie minutes not hours, washing of walls, exposed brickwork are in fact addressed by Rudolf. So again, it's in no way an argument from incredulity. He can evidence what did happen in the cellars using both chemical and document evidence to come to the correct conclusion. His argument is that because he cannot work out how it was done, it was not done. He cannot evidence what did happen inside the Leichenkellers.
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Post by mrolonzo on May 6, 2022 16:45:40 GMT
Right but those objections ie minutes not hours, washing of walls, exposed brickwork are in fact addressed by Rudolf. So again, it's in no way an argument from incredulity. He can evidence what did happen in the cellars using both chemical and document evidence to come to the correct conclusion. His argument is that because he cannot work out how it was done, it was not done. He cannot evidence what did happen inside the Leichenkellers. No that's wrong. He addressed possible explanations for the phenomena in turn, addressed how they are possible both technically and evidential then makes a reasoned conclusion from specific arguments. Including for the cellars. If you disagree you're free to posit a specific quote from the mentioned book or essay you have a problem with.
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Post by mrolonzo on May 6, 2022 16:47:29 GMT
So... the resident, irrational believer asserts that a.) there is evidence at the claimed extermination camps, AND b.) that Ephraim Kaye explained why there was no evidence there (because the Nazties destroyed it). 🤣😂😅 So which is it? Is there evidence of mass-murder of millions? OR Did the Nazties destroy that evidence? According to this cultish defender-of-the faith, the answer is YES to both questions! 😮🤪 YES there is still evidence there at the claimed extermination sites. And YES the Nazties did destroy it all. 🙄🤦♂️ So I take this nonsense reply as yet further proof that attempting a sane discussion with this individual is futile. 🙂 .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Anyone with even a basic grasp of English, will understand, how it is possible to say both the evidence was destroyed and that there is still evidence. Anyone with a basic grasp of the history of the AR camps and what is there now, will also understand. Kaye is stating that anyone visiting the AR camps sites now, will not see the evidence. Instead, they see a memorial. Let's go through a chronology and the evidence that would have been visible at the AR camps at different times; 1942-3, anyone inside the AR camps will see mass arrivals and those people being stripped naked and everything they had sorted and sent to Majdanek. They would see gas chambers, mass graves and later, mass exhumations and cremations. All the evidence was there to see. 1943-4, the camps have been closed and most buildings demolished, leaving only some buildings for guards. The gas chambers were demolished and earth spread over them. The area of each camp that had the gas chambers, graves and cremation sites has been levelled and planted over. Globocnik reported to Himmler in May 1944 that "For reasons of surveillance in each camp a small farm was created...", so to anyone going to the site, it would look like a small farm. 1944-60s, the guards have abandoned the camp sites and the grave robbers move in. In 1945, when the Poles conducted site surveys, they found large areas of cratered and dug up ground that stank and contained larger identifiable human remains, such as skulls, along with ash and cremated remains. The buildings that had been left were either looted (TII) or used by locals (Sobibor). 1960s-1990s, in the 1960s, each camp was memorialised, in an attempt to show some respect for the dead and to stop grave robbing. TII had the largest physical memorial built, with concrete covering the two main areas where mass graves had been reported by prisoners. The exposed remains were buried at TII and Belzec and put inside a concrete dome at Sobibor. The sites were grassed over and now, as today, visitors would see any of the evidence. 1990s-2010s, at various times during that periods, visitors to the sites would have seen archaeological and forensic investigations, so they would see bore hole surveys at Belzec, bore holes and excavations at Sobibor and geophysics and excavations at TII. Vistors would again see cremated remains, ash and the remains of the gas chamber foundations. Present days, all sites are memorialised and both Sobibor and Belzec and covered over like TII, so any visitor will not see any of the evidence. They will not see the remains. That is what Kaye is describing. A visitor to TII sees a site that partially grass and the large memorial. They will not see gas chambers or remains. The evidence that is still at the sites, buried under/inside the memorials, are large areas of disturbed ground containing human remains and the remains of demolished buildings, which cannot be seen anymore, but could be seen at various times over the past decades. The physical evidence is of an attempt by the Nazis to destroy as much evidence as possible, in particular, the gas chambers and also the corpses, so as to prevent body counts and identification. When evidence is destroyed, it can be reasonably inferred that there had been criminal activity. Like someone who burns clothing worn at a murder, or who smashes up a gun and buries its parts. That is why most people would understand the concept of destroying evidence, but that still leaving evidence. There is no evidence of any cover up of evidence. That's simply a cope for the lack of it. No cremains were ever evidenced. When drill holes were dug looking for actual evidence the result was the same, some bodies but no mass graves as evidence was what was found. Nothing more was found. No revisionist in the world fears this area being dug up in examined in a lab. Im happy to focus on one specific detail. Been there let's you get off Scott free by making wide ranging points to skip and dance as you like.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 7, 2022 7:40:14 GMT
His argument is that because he cannot work out how it was done, it was not done. He cannot evidence what did happen inside the Leichenkellers. No that's wrong. He addressed possible explanations for the phenomena in turn, addressed how they are possible both technically and evidential then makes a reasoned conclusion from specific arguments. Including for the cellars. If you disagree you're free to posit a specific quote from the mentioned book or essay you have a problem with. You are dodging that Rudolf provided no witnesses or other evidence to prove what was happening inside the Kremas in 1943-4.
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Post by been_there on May 7, 2022 7:41:24 GMT
Anyone with even a basic grasp of English, will understand, how it is possible to say both the evidence was destroyed and that there is still evidence... There is no evidence of any cover up of evidence. That's simply a cope for the lack of it. No cremains were ever evidenced. When drill holes were dug looking for actual evidence the result was the same, some bodies but no mass graves as evidence was what was found. Nothing more was found. No revisionist in the world fears this area being dug up in examined in a lab. Im happy to focus on one specific detail. Been-there let's you get off Scott free by making wide ranging points to skip and dance as you like. It makes no difference if you try and discuss wide-ranging issues or specifc, small details. Nessie’s isn’t here to have genuine discussion and debate. He is here to contradict regardless of whether that requires a 180° change from arguments he has used before. He has admitted that his purpose is to provoke people into making anti-semitic comments. So the more irrational and nonsensical his replies are, makes no difference to him, as that serve the purpose. IF people get frustrated by his refusal to see reason, and start to use anti-semitic insults his purpose is served. Or if they make extreme, vague arguments such as ’it never happened’, or insupportable, extreme statements such as ’no-one was ever gassed’. See above for a nonsense argument. Position 1: the evidence DOES exist, revisionists are in denial of it. Position 2: the evidence does NOT exist because the retreating Nazties destroyed it. Position 3: he says both are true. In his head there is no contradiction. His mission is successfully accomplished as he has contradicted a reasonable revisionist argument. This thread is about how the ’eye witness’ testimony actually refutes the compulsory, pseudo-historical, legally-protected Holocaust narrative.In his replies he has contradicted irrefutable facts PLUS he has successfully derailed discussion of the devastating truth about eye-witness testimony actually refuting the H-narrative. So he is happy. THIS is what he has obfuscated! The lies of old East European Jews in school class rooms to captive children are celebrated. Their lies and racist hate-tropes are NOT punished. They are instead honoured and televised. While an old German woman who sanely, intelligently, reasonably exposes the deceptions inherent in the narrative is persistently persecuted and imprisoned.    Frank Bright is presented to school kids as an eye-witness to all that as he actually saw “a gas chamber in action” at Auschwitz and seeing that as a young teenager “still affects” him. But we all know — including Nessie — that that isn’t true. This is how the unevidenced narrative of a Jew-genocide in gas-chambers is being perpetuated. By allowing old people to lie in class rooms, claiming to have ‘witnessed’ things we KNOW they didn’t.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 7, 2022 7:44:56 GMT
.... There is no evidence of any cover up of evidence. That's simply a cope for the lack of it. The Nazis demolished the bunker gas chambers and Kremas IV and V and blew up the Kremas II and III and converted Krema I into an air raid shelter. They demolished most buildings at the AR camps, planted over large areas of ground and left them guarded. That is evidence of a cover up. Archaeologists identified human remains and cremated bits of bone and samples from Sobibor were tested and found to be human. Bore hole samples and geophysics identified large areas of disturbed ground. Stop trying to pretend there is little evidence.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 7, 2022 7:51:57 GMT
... So the more irrational and nonsensical his replies are, makes no difference to him, as that serve the purpose if people get frustrated by his refusal to see reason. See above. Position 1: the evidence DOES exist, revisionists are in denial of it. Position 2: the evidence does NOT exist because the retreating Nazties destroyed it. Position 3: he says both are true. In his head there is no contradiction. His mission is successfully accomplished as he has contradicted a reasonable revisionist argument. ... There is plenty of evidence the Nazis did not destroy, such as all of the records of mass transports to the AR camps. The destruction of evidence at the AR camps and A-B Kremas is obvious and that becomes part of the evidence. Destroying evidence does not necessarily mean it vanishes. Documents can be destroyed and burnt and there is nothing left. Corpses cannot be destroyed in the same way, as they will leave cremains. The camp sites cannot be destroyed, as buildings leave evidence of their existence even after demolition. Exhuming graves and cremated the corpses means that instead of bodies, cremains are found. That even some of the evidence was destroyed, is in itself evidence of the Nazis trying to hide their crimes. Understanding what happened to the evidence is an important part of interpreting witness evidence.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 7, 2022 8:12:02 GMT
.... Frank Bright is presented to school kids as an eye-witness to all that as he actually saw “a gas chamber in action” at Auschwitz and seeing that as a young teenager “still affects” him. But we all know — including Nessie — that that isn’t true. This is how the unevidenced narrative of a Jew-genocide in gas-chambers is being perpetuated. By allowing old people to lie in class rooms, claiming to have ‘witnessed’ things we KNOW they didn’t.The gas chambers ARE evidenced, hence Bright's comment, which is open to interpretation and is him doing what many witnesses do, mixing hearsay with eyewitness evidence, is not the issue you claim it is.
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Post by mrolonzo on May 7, 2022 8:16:09 GMT
No that's wrong. He addressed possible explanations for the phenomena in turn, addressed how they are possible both technically and evidential then makes a reasoned conclusion from specific arguments. Including for the cellars. If you disagree you're free to posit a specific quote from the mentioned book or essay you have a problem with. You are dodging that Rudolf provided no witnesses or other evidence to prove what was happening inside the Kremas in 1943-4. Im not dodging that. Im affirming that. Rudolf definitely brought no witnesses to affirm what happened in the cellars. Which clearly strengthens his argument as what happened can be shown without need of testimony.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 7, 2022 8:23:01 GMT
You are dodging that Rudolf provided no witnesses or other evidence to prove what was happening inside the Kremas in 1943-4. Im not dodging that. Im affirming that. Rudolf definitely brought no witnesses to affirm what happened in the cellars. Which clearly strengthens his argument as what happened can be shown without need of testimony. Odd how thousands worked at the Kremas (over 1700 were working on the 28th July 1944) and he cannot find one single person who speaks to something other than gassings taking place.
If he found a witness who said in July 1944 he worked at the Kremas and spent his time delousing clothing, suddenly, witness evidence would become the strongest evidence!!!!
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Post by mrolonzo on May 7, 2022 8:25:30 GMT
The Nazis demolished the bunker gas chambers and Kremas IV and V and blew up the Kremas II and III and converted Krema I into an air raid shelter. They demolished most buildings at the AR camps, planted over large areas of ground and left them guarded. That is evidence of a cover up. Archaeologists identified human remains and cremated bits of bone and samples from Sobibor were tested and found to be human. Human remains are not the holocaust. We already found bodies in Sobibor. [/quote] Disturbed ground is not a holocaust. And no bore hole ever found a mass grave. What it did find is some bodies arranged haphazardly therefore they found the remains of gypsies from the Belze's previous occupation.
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Post by mrolonzo on May 7, 2022 8:27:36 GMT
Im not dodging that. Im affirming that. Rudolf definitely brought no witnesses to affirm what happened in the cellars. Which clearly strengthens his argument as what happened can be shown without need of testimony. Odd how thousands worked at the Kremas (over 1700 were working on the 28th July 1944) and he cannot find one single person who speaks to something other than gassings taking place.
If he found a witness who said in July 1944 he worked at the Kremas and spent his time delousing clothing, suddenly, witness evidence would become the strongest evidence!!!!
Not really. It was world war two, most people there didn't see anything and wouldn't make up stories so there's nothing for them to say. And nice try accusing others of exaggerating evidence.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on May 7, 2022 8:30:05 GMT
Mrolonzo is going off topic, but it is important to note what he is discussing, without him realising, is the contextualising of evidence. Cyanide residues and cremains on their own, do not tell us what happened. Frank Bright, on his own, only tells us a small part of what happened. To find out what happened, ALL of the evidence has to be logically and chronologically pieced together.
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Post by mrolonzo on May 7, 2022 8:33:02 GMT
... So the more irrational and nonsensical his replies are, makes no difference to him, as that serve the purpose if people get frustrated by his refusal to see reason. See above. Position 1: the evidence DOES exist, revisionists are in denial of it. Position 2: the evidence does NOT exist because the retreating Nazties destroyed it. Position 3: he says both are true. In his head there is no contradiction. His mission is successfully accomplished as he has contradicted a reasonable revisionist argument. ... There is plenty of evidence the Nazis did not destroy, such as all of the records of mass transports to the AR camps. The destruction of evidence at the AR camps and A-B Kremas is obvious and that becomes part of the evidence. Destroying evidence does not necessarily mean it vanishes. Documents can be destroyed and burnt and there is nothing left. Corpses cannot be destroyed in the same way, as they will leave cremains. The camp sites cannot be destroyed, as buildings leave evidence of their existence even after demolition. Exhuming graves and cremated the corpses means that instead of bodies, cremains are found. That even some of the evidence was destroyed, is in itself evidence of the Nazis trying to hide their crimes. Understanding what happened to the evidence is an important part of interpreting witness evidence. Are you saying Nazis destroyed transport records? On what grounds.
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