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Post by been_there on Feb 1, 2022 13:56:34 GMT
It's a concern about the form of the document. What I meant was if the document shown is an actual copy of the message as it was copied. I say that due to the fact that I've not seen any headings on the document. Was the intercept a known source or was it a "ditter", an unknown? I'll try to get a bit into the world of intercept without saying too much. The exact forms used by the US and the Brits wouldn't necessarily be the same but there are issues that would have to be addressed no matter who was doing the intercept. First there would be a heading. The "mission" would have to be identified, dated, etc. and that's for every page. Only when an op is doing a search do they just go poking around, up and down the dial, looking for some unknown "ditter" to copy. Otherwise, the person you're copying is known and you have "continuity" on them e.g. you know when he's scheduled to come up and transmit. Who was the mission that transmitted the telegram? Why are there no time hacks on the telegram? I was required to enter the time at least once every two (2) minutes and that message would take much longer than that to transmit. At the top right of the page there's the notation, "...rest missed". There are strict protocols for missing characters of a message. Intercept ops are required to be at least 98% accurate and missed characters are something of a "big deal". The protocol for a missed character is just a period or if more than one character can't be heard it's notated, //blkd// or //qrn//. "qrn" is international Q and Z signal for natural interference, e.g. sunspot activity/static. Man made interference is "qrm". The point is, you don't just write, "rest missed". Further down we have, "...2 groups corrupt". Again, the protocols for missed characters would come into play. That help you out any? Yes, that helps me understand better your question. 🙂 Fascinating. I know nothing about the details of hands-on espionage and hacking, so hadn’t appreciated before the points you are making about missing details. Thanks. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 14:45:45 GMT
So where is the complete intercept? Where are the headings, the time hacks and the operator identifier amongst other things? Was it part of a mission or did some bored op just run across it when he was on the knobs?
Edit. Nessie wrote: A historian wouldn't know his arse from his elbow about an intercept. What I want to see is the actual intercept. Not a translation some jerk-off clerk pecked out on an office typewriter but the original intercept complete with call signs and frequencies.
National Archives where the Hofle Telegram is kept here;
Access to the Bletchley Archives here;
The original decode, will be in either one.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 14:48:43 GMT
It's a concern about the form of the document. What I meant was if the document shown is an actual copy of the message as it was copied. I say that due to the fact that I've not seen any headings on the document. Was the intercept a known source or was it a "ditter", an unknown? I'll try to get a bit into the world of intercept without saying too much. The exact forms used by the US and the Brits wouldn't necessarily be the same but there are issues that would have to be addressed no matter who was doing the intercept. First there would be a heading. The "mission" would have to be identified, dated, etc. and that's for every page. Only when an op is doing a search do they just go poking around, up and down the dial, looking for some unknown "ditter" to copy. Otherwise, the person you're copying is known and you have "continuity" on them e.g. you know when he's scheduled to come up and transmit. Who was the mission that transmitted the telegram? Why are there no time hacks on the telegram? I was required to enter the time at least once every two (2) minutes and that message would take much longer than that to transmit. At the top right of the page there's the notation, "...rest missed". There are strict protocols for missing characters of a message. Intercept ops are required to be at least 98% accurate and missed characters are something of a "big deal". The protocol for a missed character is just a period or if more than one character can't be heard it's notated, //blkd// or //qrn//. "qrn" is international Q and Z signal for natural interference, e.g. sunspot activity/static. Man made interference is "qrm". The point is, you don't just write, "rest missed". Further down we have, "...2 groups corrupt". Again, the protocols for missed characters would come into play. That help you out any? You should research what the procedures & protocols were at Bletchley. That they do not match what you seem to expect does not matter. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 16:43:36 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That's about as moronic as it gets. You HAVE to have a heading on the intercept no matter who you are. Otherwise people won't know who you copied. Germany would have to be identified as the target. That probably will just be a one or two letter/digit code but people who receive the intercept have to know who it is. Then there will be a series of letters/digits to identify the HQ/Command structure e.g. the Army , the Navy, Secret Police or whatever but the intercept isn't just a piece of paper with a message typed on it.
Then there are the call signs and frequencies. This is what a call-up would look like:
DEF2 de ABC1 CL K //ABC1/A //6785 //0800z
ABC1 is identified as the control and DEF2 is the outstation. 6785 is the frequency in kilohertz. Then there's a time hack, 0800. Usually in GMT or Zulu time.
Then in a VERY simple radio link, the outstation would reply:
ABC1 de DEF2 R QSA 4 QRU IMI HR MSG 10 K //DEF2/B //6785 //0801Z
No matter who did the intercept that would be the general procedure.
Without seeing the original intercept there's no way to even begin to verify the telegram as authentic. It's just someone waving a piece of paper and saying, "Look what I got from the enemy".
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 17:32:44 GMT
Nessie wrote: That's about as moronic as it gets. You HAVE to have a heading on the intercept no matter who you are. Otherwise people won't know who you copied. Germany would have to be identified as the target. That probably will just be a one or two letter/digit code but people who receive the intercept have to know who it is. Then there will be a series of letters/digits to identify the HQ/Command structure e.g. the Army , the Navy, Secret Police or whatever but the intercept isn't just a piece of paper with a message typed on it. The only country that the British were intercepting using Enigma was Nazi Germany. The telegram is one in a series of German language intercepts. The telegram mentions Krakau, Lublin and German military ranks. Your comment that "Germany would have to be identified as the target" is you applying how your system worked, to a different situation. The intercept is recorded as 13/15 OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250. Bletchley had its system of headings and you had yours. In 1943, in England, using intercepts of morse code messages that were known to be from Germany, which had to decoded and typed up on paper and translated, the system used is not comparable to what you did. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 17:52:28 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That's just mindless bull[excrement]. The Germans had more than one enigma machine. Which radio link was sending the message would have to be known. Call signs would have to be used. A call-up would have to be established before traffic could be sent. What you're suggesting is moronic beyond belief.
Is that the actual intercept or how it was filed? Let's see the intercept since you claim to have a handle on it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 18:09:16 GMT
Nessie wrote: That's just mindless bull[excrement]. The Germans had more than one enigma machine. Which radio link was sending the message would have to be known. Call signs would have to be used. A call-up would have to be established before traffic could be sent. What you're suggesting is moronic beyond belief. You said "Germany would have to be identified as the target." Why would an intercept, in German, mentioning places in Nazi occupied territory, using German ranks, need to be identified as being from Germany? As for which radio link sent the message, why is that even important? Would it be possible with the technology available then? I do not know how they referenced or filed intercepts. I can see that it was given a reference. That it was different from your experience is not an issue. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 18:13:10 GMT
Do you have a copy of the intercept or a link to it? Yes or No.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 18:24:19 GMT
Do you have a copy of the intercept or a link to it? Yes or No. I have already linked to what is online, as has been-there. Here it is again
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 18:53:40 GMT
Go here: www.tnmoc.org/bh-4-the-y-intercept-stations to see how idiotic you are about the origin of the intercepts. An excerpt: So, you don't have the intercept and there's apparently nothing available except the traffic and the translation. Is it authentic? That's unknown. Irving has his doubts and I for damn sure do. Your claim that the supposed telegram defines the number of victims for Treblinka is bull[excrement]. IF the original intercept can be found and authenticated then I'll be willing to concede that the number of deportees/victims of Treblinka is probably around 850,000 to 900,000. I'll not concede that Treblinka was a death camp. |
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