Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 17:52:28 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That's just mindless bullshit. The Germans had more than one enigma machine. Which radio link was sending the message would have to be known. Call signs would have to be used. A call-up would have to be established before traffic could be sent. What you're suggesting is moronic beyond belief.
Is that the actual intercept or how it was filed? Let's see the intercept since you claim to have a handle on it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 18:09:16 GMT
Nessie wrote: That's just mindless bullshit. The Germans had more than one enigma machine. Which radio link was sending the message would have to be known. Call signs would have to be used. A call-up would have to be established before traffic could be sent. What you're suggesting is moronic beyond belief. You said "Germany would have to be identified as the target." Why would an intercept, in German, mentioning places in Nazi occupied territory, using German ranks, need to be identified as being from Germany? As for which radio link sent the message, why is that even important? Would it be possible with the technology available then? I do not know how they referenced or filed intercepts. I can see that it was given a reference. That it was different from your experience is not an issue. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 18:13:10 GMT
Do you have a copy of the intercept or a link to it? Yes or No.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 18:24:19 GMT
Do you have a copy of the intercept or a link to it? Yes or No. I have already linked to what is online, as has been-there. Here it is again
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 18:53:40 GMT
Go here: www.tnmoc.org/bh-4-the-y-intercept-stations to see how idiotic you are about the origin of the intercepts. An excerpt: So, you don't have the intercept and there's apparently nothing available except the traffic and the translation. Is it authentic? That's unknown. Irving has his doubts and I for damn sure do. Your claim that the supposed telegram defines the number of victims for Treblinka is bullshit. IF the original intercept can be found and authenticated then I'll be willing to concede that the number of deportees/victims of Treblinka is probably around 850,000 to 900,000. I'll not concede that Treblinka was a death camp. |
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Post by Ulios on Feb 1, 2022 19:04:07 GMT
The letter o with umlaut (รถ) appears in the German alphabet. It represents the umlauted form of o, resulting in [ล]. The other german umlauts are รค and รผ. It is noticed in this telegram that the umlauts รค and รผ with some regularity but รถ is missing. It is clear they are using a German typewriter as english ones do not have the umlaut keys as the German ones do. However, the engima device the Germans used did not bother about the niceties of the German language a simple A O or U would suffice. This is the engima keyboard, input and output. This means that the umlauts in the Hoefle telegram were put in by the typist and not a part of the actual intercept. Hรถfle would have been sent via enigma as Hofle, his name changed to Hoefle by the typist like the words with the umlauts. The figures could also easily be changed by the same typist as the inclusion of the umlauts. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 19:36:17 GMT
Go here: www.tnmoc.org/bh-4-the-y-intercept-stations to see how idiotic you are about the origin of the intercepts. An excerpt: So, you don't have the intercept and there's apparently nothing available except the traffic and the translation. OK, by intercept, you mean the original coded message as typed out by the intercept station, before it was decoded. How would that help you? Since the message was found amongst multiple other messages from Beltchely, its authenticity as a Bletchley intercept is assured. Irving said he was 80% sure it was genuine. Your doubts are irrelevant. The original intercept is pre decoding. How do you plan to read it? Since there are other documents recording mass transports to TII, along with numerous witnesses to mass transports to the camp, that hundreds of thousands were sent there is proven. |
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Post by Ulios on Feb 1, 2022 20:00:18 GMT
Your doubts are irrelevant. You are irrelevant. No doubt these intercepts were "wire' recorded. It would be negligent not to have done this; this means they should be copied and accessible if declassified. This thread is to discuss the intercept not whether T was a death camp or a camp for Hitler Youth. Talking about other documents is off topic to this thread and deliberate. Stick to the topic. |
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Post by been_there on Feb 1, 2022 20:01:36 GMT
The letter o with umlaut (รถ) appears in the German alphabet. It represents the umlauted form of o, resulting in [ล]. The other german umlauts are and รผ. It is noticed in this telegram that the umlauts รค and รผ with some regularity but รถ is missing. It is clear they are using a German typewriter as english ones do not have the umlaut keys as the German ones do. However, the engima device the Germans used did not bother about the niceties of the German language a simple A O or U would suffice... This means that the umlauts in the Hรถfle telegram were put in by the typist and not a part of the actual intercept. Hรถfle would have been sent via enigma as Hofle, his name changed to Hoefle by the typist like the words with the umlauts. The figures could also easily be changed by the same typist as the inclusion of the umlauts. Thanks for the info on the Enigma machine. But the issue of the non-German spelling of Hermann Hรถfleโs name remains the same. The Bletchley typists had German typewriters that had keys for the German letters with umlauts. This particular page demonstrates that is the case, as it has words with umlauts. E.g. Hรคnden, tรคgige, fรผhrer, verfรผgung, etc. As you correctly point out, the Enigma message would have spelt HOFLE. So the German speaking interceptor at Bletchley would have EITHER typed that as Hรถfle or Hofle,. NOT as Hoefle, as the actual document does. Thus indicating that this is a mistake of a forger. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 20:14:36 GMT
The information on the Hofle Telegram is corroborated by other evidence. Its find in 2000 only added to existing evidence, by giving some extra detail to what was already known.
The argument that a Bletchley typist would not make mistakes, but a forger would, is a nonsense.
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Post by Ulios on Feb 1, 2022 20:22:48 GMT
The information on the Hofle Telegram is corroborated by other evidence. Its find in 2000 only added to existing evidence, by giving some extra detail to what was already known. The argument that a Bletchley typist would not make mistakes, but a forger would, is a nonsense. It could well be that the other evidence is the inspiration for this telegram. Hoefle is the English phoenetic spelling of Hรถfle; Germans do not have a need for this due to their umlauts. It is indeed strange that the operator uses umlauts for รค and รผ but not for รถ, when the keyboard is there for use. The Germans would have sent the name as Hofle. This error screams forgery. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 1, 2022 20:33:56 GMT
The information on the Hofle Telegram is corroborated by other evidence. Its find in 2000 only added to existing evidence, by giving some extra detail to what was already known. The argument that a Bletchley typist would not make mistakes, but a forger would, is a nonsense. It could well be that the other evidence is the inspiration for this telegram. Hoefle is the English phoenetic spelling of Hรถfle; Germans do not have a need for this due to their umlauts. It is indeed strange that the operator uses umlauts for รค and รผ but not for รถ, when the keyboard is there for use. The Germans would have sent the name as Hofle. This error screams forgery. Your argument is that Bletchley typists type better German than forgers is nonsense. There are other spellings used, such as Krakau and Warschau and obviously Reinhardt, which suggest the typists German spelling was not great. |
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Post by Ulios on Feb 1, 2022 20:56:36 GMT
Your argument is that Bletchley typists type better German than forgers is nonsense. There are other spellings used, such as Krakau and Warschau and obviously Reinhardt, which suggest the typists German spelling was not great. There is only one spelling for Hรถfle which is represented as Hofle. The UK National Archives have corrected this in the following. It is not the spelling that is the issue but he knowledge that Germans do not use the English phoenetic spelling for the umlauts. If this was consistent then the telegram would have fรผhrer written as fuehrer or Hรคnden as Henden;yet the umlauts stop the need for this. This is consistent through all the intercepts above and below the Hรถfle one. Interestingly in transcript 16 (below the Hรถfle one) SS Hauptsturmfรผhrer Kรถrff is written as Korf and NOT Koerff as with Hoefle. |
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Post by been_there on Feb 1, 2022 21:17:10 GMT
Your argument is that Bletchley typists type better German than forgers is nonsense. There are other spellings used, such as Krakau and Warschau and obviously Reinhardt, which suggest the typists German spelling was not great. There is only one spelling for Hรถfle which is represented as Hofle. The UK National Archives have corrected this in the following. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> It is not the spelling that is the issue but he knowledge that Germans do not use the English phoenetic spelling for the umlauts. If this was consistent then the telegram would have fรผhrer written as fuehrer or Hรคnden as Henden;yet the umlauts stop the need for this. This is consistent through all the intercepts above and below the Hรถfle one. Interestingly in transcript 16 (below the Hรถfle one) SS Hauptsturmfรผhrer Kรถrff is written as Korf and NOT Koerff as with Hoefle. You canโt get Nessie to admit this about umlauts, as not only is he profoundly ignorant of the logistics and bizarre details of Shoah mythology, but he is impervious to reason, logic and indisputable facts where that contradicts his cherished โholyco$tโ belief-system. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 21:35:48 GMT
been-there wrote: Anyone who can accept Wiernik and Rajchman as honest and truthful eyewitnesses isn't going to have a problem with umlauts or the lack of the original intercept document.
Nessie wrote:
Irving is a historian. Not an old intercept operator.
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