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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jan 31, 2022 10:43:19 GMT
Korherr refers specifically to the General Government and both he and Hofle use exactly the same total of Jews to the end of 1942. Korherr also records the numbers regarding the other death camp at Chelmno, which was not part of AR, but served the same purpose. Gas the Jews from the local ghettos and steal their property. It is this exact number which is in dispute it seems. The readings suggest that these places were one of "displacement" rather than a final destinations; that however, is NOT the scope of this thread. I am sure that neither Hoefle or Korherr mentions that the jews were gassed and property stolen. That is entirely your addition, made up nonsense to fill the gaps to support an agenda. |
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Jan 31, 2022 11:23:25 GMT
Korherr refers specifically to the General Government and both he and Hofle use exactly the same total of Jews to the end of 1942. Korherr also records the numbers regarding the other death camp at Chelmno, which was not part of AR, but served the same purpose. Gas the Jews from the local ghettos and steal their property. It is this exact number which is in dispute it seems. The readings suggest that these places were one of "displacement" rather than a final destinations; that however, is NOT the scope of this thread. I am sure that neither Hoefle or Korherr mentions that the jews were gassed and property stolen. That is entirely your addition, made up nonsense to fill the gaps to support an agenda. Turnagain's claim in the OP is wrong, that is has been proved. The 1.27 million figure is correct and a "5" was missed from the "T" figure. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jan 31, 2022 11:43:44 GMT
Turnagain's claim in the OP is wrong, that is has been proved. The 1.27 million figure is correct and a "5" was missed from the "T" figure. Perhaps, but if the intercepts are correct, it is impossible to get the numbers before and after correct if the middle one is missing. This puts the whole encryption out by a huge step. This is not a matter of a telex machinist not hearing, but the Colossus computer decrypting once it establishes the key; the point being 71,355 becoming 713,555. It is not known how this information was sent, via phone or radio; there was an ability to read both all using the enigma device. If there was an error in reception then it is likely the German authorities also received the same error and filled in the gaps. This is a tenfold increase of the inmate muster. It is likely the Germans and the Allies got an identical message. Korherr, like the British modified the message. It would suit their purpose to think more Jews were processed than the reality. |
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Jan 31, 2022 12:01:39 GMT
The reason why the 713,555 figure is correct for TII, is that there are ghetto records of transports to the camp, which have hundreds, not tens of thousands sent there by the end of 1942. Hofle, Korherr and ghetto transport records corroborate to prove the 713,555 figure.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jan 31, 2022 18:49:25 GMT
The reason why the 713,555 figure is correct for TII, is that there are ghetto records of transports to the camp, which have hundreds, not tens of thousands sent there by the end of 1942. Hofle, Korherr and ghetto transport records corroborate to prove the 713,555 figure. The first transports from the Warsaw ghetto to the camp left in July: Here we have some information about the first transports of 1000 jewish youth to Bobruysk. The contradictions in the evidence above is clear. What is clear however, is that transports passed through the T statistical area ending up in Ostland or the Russian East. The data this poster claims to possess is not verified and at odds with other known "facts". |
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Post by been_there on Feb 1, 2022 6:36:22 GMT
A few relevant FACTS regarding the file in the archive of Bletchley Park intercepts known as the Hรถfle telegram:
Q. is there any other intercept in the Bletchley Park files that has been produced purporting to be concerning the alleged planned genocide of all European Jews?
A. No!
Q. Does a "5" have to be retroactively added โ supposedly six decades later โ in the list of numbers, to make it โfitโ the H-narrative?
A. Yes!
Q. Is it retroactively claimed that the interception and decoding of Axis intercepts โwas not 100% accurateโ in order to make this intercept โfitโ the later H-narrative?
A. Yes!
Q. Is there only one other document claimed to be documentary proof of the actual numbers of Jews supposedly mass-murdered?
A. Yes, there is. And the other document is the Korherr report which the author Richard Korherr refuted was about numbers of murdered Jews. And he made that refutation publicly in 1977!
Q. Did the retro-active โdiscoveryโ and interpretation of this file, claim the now discredited myth of Majdanek being a โdeath campโ?
Yes. The L was claimed to refer to Lublin and thus was supposed to be referring to Majdanek.
Q. Is there any possibility that this file โfoundโ in 2000 is a clever forgery designed to shore up the โJew-genocide-by-gassingโ mythology that has been so discredited by revisionist researchers?
Yes. Researcher David Irving has detailed some of the claimed intercepts anomalies:
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 8:36:47 GMT
Just curious, been-there, but is that supposed to be a copy of the actual intercept?
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Post by been_there on Feb 1, 2022 9:09:51 GMT
Just curious, been-there, but is that supposed to be a copy of the actual intercept? I donโt understand your question? Is what supposed to be a โcopyโ? Here you can view an image of the document โfoundโ in 2000 amongst the Bletchley Park files that allegedly was the decrypted radio telegram, supposedly intercepted and typed out in 1943:  SOURCE: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/holocaust/hoefle-telegram/Another anomaly pointing to this being a forgery is that Hรถfleโs name is spelt not as it would have been in a German transmission using German alphabet on a German typewriter but is spelt without an umlaut. I.e. it is spelt as Anglicised โ Hoefleโ. To decrypt the intercepts required an Enigma machine AND a German typewriter with keys for the German letters รถ รผ รค. You will see that these letters of the German alphabet are used. So presumably the forgers did not know that Hรถfle was how his name was spelt, not the Anglicised โHoefleโ. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 9:47:34 GMT
It's a concern about the form of the document. What I meant was if the document shown is an actual copy of the message as it was copied. I say that due to the fact that I've not seen any headings on the document. Was the intercept a known source or was it a "ditter", an unknown? I'll try to get a bit into the world of intercept without saying too much.
The exact forms used by the US and the Brits wouldn't necessarily be the same but there are issues that would have to be addressed no matter who was doing the intercept. First there would be a heading. The "mission" would have to be identified, dated, etc. and that's for every page. Only when an op is doing a search do they just go poking around, up and down the dial, looking for some unknown "ditter" to copy. Otherwise, the person you're copying is known and you have "continuity" on them e.g. you know when he's scheduled to come up and transmit. Who was the mission that transmitted the telegram? Why are there no time hacks on the telegram? I was required to enter the time at least once every two (2) minutes and that message would take much longer than that to transmit.
At the top right of the page there's the notation, "...rest missed". There are strict protocols for missing characters of a message. Intercept ops are required to be at least 98% accurate and missed characters are something of a "big deal". The protocol for a missed character is just a period or if more than one character can't be heard it's notated, //blkd// or //qrn//. "qrn" is international Q and Z signal for natural interference, e.g. sunspot activity/static. Man made interference is "qrm". The point is, you don't just write, "rest missed". Further down we have, "...2 groups corrupt". Again, the protocols for missed characters would come into play.
That help you out any?
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 10:55:25 GMT
So where is the complete intercept? Where are the headings, the time hacks and the operator identifier amongst other things? Was it part of a mission or did some bored op just run across it when he was on the knobs?
Edit. Nessie wrote: A historian wouldn't know his arse from his elbow about an intercept. What I want to see is the actual intercept. Not a translation some jerk-off clerk pecked out on an office typewriter but the original intercept complete with call signs and frequencies.
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Post by been_there on Feb 1, 2022 13:56:34 GMT
It's a concern about the form of the document. What I meant was if the document shown is an actual copy of the message as it was copied. I say that due to the fact that I've not seen any headings on the document. Was the intercept a known source or was it a "ditter", an unknown? I'll try to get a bit into the world of intercept without saying too much. The exact forms used by the US and the Brits wouldn't necessarily be the same but there are issues that would have to be addressed no matter who was doing the intercept. First there would be a heading. The "mission" would have to be identified, dated, etc. and that's for every page. Only when an op is doing a search do they just go poking around, up and down the dial, looking for some unknown "ditter" to copy. Otherwise, the person you're copying is known and you have "continuity" on them e.g. you know when he's scheduled to come up and transmit. Who was the mission that transmitted the telegram? Why are there no time hacks on the telegram? I was required to enter the time at least once every two (2) minutes and that message would take much longer than that to transmit. At the top right of the page there's the notation, "...rest missed". There are strict protocols for missing characters of a message. Intercept ops are required to be at least 98% accurate and missed characters are something of a "big deal". The protocol for a missed character is just a period or if more than one character can't be heard it's notated, //blkd// or //qrn//. "qrn" is international Q and Z signal for natural interference, e.g. sunspot activity/static. Man made interference is "qrm". The point is, you don't just write, "rest missed". Further down we have, "...2 groups corrupt". Again, the protocols for missed characters would come into play. That help you out any? Yes, that helps me understand better your question. ๐ Fascinating. I know nothing about the details of hands-on espionage and hacking, so hadnโt appreciated before the points you are making about missing details. Thanks. |
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Feb 1, 2022 14:45:45 GMT
So where is the complete intercept? Where are the headings, the time hacks and the operator identifier amongst other things? Was it part of a mission or did some bored op just run across it when he was on the knobs?
Edit. Nessie wrote: A historian wouldn't know his arse from his elbow about an intercept. What I want to see is the actual intercept. Not a translation some jerk-off clerk pecked out on an office typewriter but the original intercept complete with call signs and frequencies.
National Archives where the Hofle Telegram is kept here;
Access to the Bletchley Archives here;
The original decode, will be in either one.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Feb 1, 2022 14:48:43 GMT
It's a concern about the form of the document. What I meant was if the document shown is an actual copy of the message as it was copied. I say that due to the fact that I've not seen any headings on the document. Was the intercept a known source or was it a "ditter", an unknown? I'll try to get a bit into the world of intercept without saying too much. The exact forms used by the US and the Brits wouldn't necessarily be the same but there are issues that would have to be addressed no matter who was doing the intercept. First there would be a heading. The "mission" would have to be identified, dated, etc. and that's for every page. Only when an op is doing a search do they just go poking around, up and down the dial, looking for some unknown "ditter" to copy. Otherwise, the person you're copying is known and you have "continuity" on them e.g. you know when he's scheduled to come up and transmit. Who was the mission that transmitted the telegram? Why are there no time hacks on the telegram? I was required to enter the time at least once every two (2) minutes and that message would take much longer than that to transmit. At the top right of the page there's the notation, "...rest missed". There are strict protocols for missing characters of a message. Intercept ops are required to be at least 98% accurate and missed characters are something of a "big deal". The protocol for a missed character is just a period or if more than one character can't be heard it's notated, //blkd// or //qrn//. "qrn" is international Q and Z signal for natural interference, e.g. sunspot activity/static. Man made interference is "qrm". The point is, you don't just write, "rest missed". Further down we have, "...2 groups corrupt". Again, the protocols for missed characters would come into play. That help you out any? You should research what the procedures & protocols were at Bletchley. That they do not match what you seem to expect does not matter. |
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 1, 2022 16:43:36 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That's about as moronic as it gets. You HAVE to have a heading on the intercept no matter who you are. Otherwise people won't know who you copied. Germany would have to be identified as the target. That probably will just be a one or two letter/digit code but people who receive the intercept have to know who it is. Then there will be a series of letters/digits to identify the HQ/Command structure e.g. the Army , the Navy, Secret Police or whatever but the intercept isn't just a piece of paper with a message typed on it.
Then there are the call signs and frequencies. This is what a call-up would look like:
DEF2 de ABC1 CL K //ABC1/A //6785 //0800z
ABC1 is identified as the control and DEF2 is the outstation. 6785 is the frequency in kilohertz. Then there's a time hack, 0800. Usually in GMT or Zulu time.
Then in a VERY simple radio link, the outstation would reply:
ABC1 de DEF2 R QSA 4 QRU IMI HR MSG 10 K //DEF2/B //6785 //0801Z
No matter who did the intercept that would be the general procedure.
Without seeing the original intercept there's no way to even begin to verify the telegram as authentic. It's just someone waving a piece of paper and saying, "Look what I got from the enemy".
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Feb 1, 2022 17:32:44 GMT
Nessie wrote: That's about as moronic as it gets. You HAVE to have a heading on the intercept no matter who you are. Otherwise people won't know who you copied. Germany would have to be identified as the target. That probably will just be a one or two letter/digit code but people who receive the intercept have to know who it is. Then there will be a series of letters/digits to identify the HQ/Command structure e.g. the Army , the Navy, Secret Police or whatever but the intercept isn't just a piece of paper with a message typed on it. The only country that the British were intercepting using Enigma was Nazi Germany. The telegram is one in a series of German language intercepts. The telegram mentions Krakau, Lublin and German military ranks. Your comment that "Germany would have to be identified as the target" is you applying how your system worked, to a different situation. The intercept is recorded as 13/15 OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250. Bletchley had its system of headings and you had yours. In 1943, in England, using intercepts of morse code messages that were known to be from Germany, which had to decoded and typed up on paper and translated, the system used is not comparable to what you did. |
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