Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 30, 2022 13:20:27 GMT
I was an intercept operator for the ASA/NSA. I understand very well the propensity that radio operators have for mistakes. That would be compounded with the enigma machine being used. I have not-so-fond memories of idiots who couldn't copy and the endless collations. Don't try to bullshit me about the ins and outs of radio intercept.
BTW, people usually distinguish between an honest mistake and an in your face lie.
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Post by been_there on Jan 30, 2022 16:36:43 GMT
BTW, people usually distinguish between an honest mistake and an in your face lie.
Yeah, MOST can distinguish between an honest mistake and an in your face lie. But unfortunately not people who have an emotional, irrational attachment to a mythological, exaggerated belief-system that is built upon deliberate, war-time, โatrocity propagandaโ lies. ๐คท๐ผโโ๏ธPeople who who have an emotional attachment to a lie would rather lie themselves than admit error. And the bigger the lie they have been duped by, the harder it is for them to admit they have been duped. As we see here everyday with this stubbornly ignorant and dishonest H-believer. The REALITY is that: ~ the Hรถfle telegram is the ONLY supposedly deciphered intercept that was ever sent concerning the alleged programme to mass-murder 11 million Jews. In other words, we are asked to believe that the Third Reich high command and โEndlรถsungโ operatives NEVER sent any other unequivocal messages by paper or by coded messages about such a huge operation. Self-delusional โbelieversโ in the Holocaust mass-gassing โJew genocideโ narrative think that makes sense. It doesnโt. And Raul Hilberg is the only H-believer who had the honesty to admit it doesnโt make sense, and so invented the explanation that the whole policy and all the necessary logistical issues were sorted using โtelepathic mind-readingโ. ~ even the Hรถfle telegram itself โ if it is genuine โ is not unequivocally referring to the supposed programme to mass-murder 11 million Jews. It needs โinterpretingโ. Both i.) the numbers have to be adjusted to fit, AND ii.) what the initials supposedly represent have to be interpreted RETROACTIVELY to fit the belief-system. So the Hรถfle telegram is a good example of just how weak the actual โevidenceโ is for this โbelief-systemโ. Itโs up there alongside us being xpected to believe that the whole operation was planned and executed using โeuphemismsโ, yet simultaneously we are expected to believe that Hitler wrote about his โgenocideโ plan in โMein kampfโ and even declared it to the world in recorded public broadcasts. ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 30, 2022 17:30:27 GMT
been-there wrote:
Indeed, the telegram is a flimsy foundation to build the myth upon. First there's a demonstrable mistake and then the guilty party must be identified as British. Then, according to Irving, there's the question of if the telegram is even genuine. I think that Hoefle's telegram comes under the heading of "damfino" rather than a solid fact.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 30, 2022 17:35:37 GMT
I was an intercept operator for the ASA/NSA. I understand very well the propensity that radio operators have for mistakes. That would be compounded with the enigma machine being used. I have not-so-fond memories of idiots who couldn't copy and the endless collations. Don't try to bullshit me about the ins and outs of radio intercept.
BTW, people usually distinguish between an honest mistake and an in your face lie.
So now you know why the figures given in the British typed intercept, often referred to as the "Hofle Telegram" do not tally. It would make more sense to call it the Hofle intercept, so that people realise it was typed up by someone at Bletchley.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 30, 2022 18:10:38 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Yes and it was sent by a German radio op and received by another. That's assuming that Hoefle did in fact send a telegram.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 30, 2022 18:15:35 GMT
Nessie wrote: Yes and it was sent by a German radio op and received by another. That's assuming that Hoefle did in fact send a telegram. There is no assumption. The British intercepted a message, not knowing at the time who Hofle was or what the message was about.
You are trying to deflect from your original mistake about the numbers. Hofle and Korherr corroborate exactly how many had arrived at the AR camps by the end of 1942.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 30, 2022 18:34:45 GMT
According to Irving the telegram itself is questionable. If the German radio op botched the job then Koherr would have used the wrong number. The point is, somebody made a mistake. That's some pretty flimsy evidence for your claim that ~900,000 people were murdered.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 30, 2022 19:38:45 GMT
According to Irving the telegram itself is questionable. If the German radio op botched the job then Koherr would have used the wrong number. The point is, somebody made a mistake. That's some pretty flimsy evidence for your claim that ~900,000 people were murdered. Quote Irving. Let me see what he actually said.
Hofle is corroborated by Korherr and the other evidence of mass transports to the AR camps. Your claim in the OP is a mistake and you just say sorry.
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Post by Ulios on Jan 30, 2022 20:10:25 GMT
"the Hรถfle telegram is the ONLY supposedly deciphered intercept that was ever sent concerning the alleged programme to mass-murder 11 million Jews" It coincides with the statistical report of people being expelled from the Reich into its territories known colloquially as the "Russian East"; Korherr mentions nothing of mass murder only expulsion. I am interested why Wolzek was not on the telegram. If Nessie wishes to claim that the Reich intended to murder 11 million chosen ones, then he needs to present his evidence elsewhere. |
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Post by been_there on Jan 30, 2022 20:14:59 GMT
"the Hรถfle telegram is the ONLY supposedly deciphered intercept that was ever sent concerning the alleged programme to mass-murder 11 million Jews"
This thread is about the file found in the Bletchley Park British intercepts which it is retroactively claimed to be referring to a mass genocide but can only be made to fit that narrative by amending the numbers in it and then subjecting it to a confirmation biased interpretation.
If I am wrong, it is for those maintaining that to show me how I am wrong. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 30, 2022 20:25:18 GMT
A reminder of what the original claim made was. .... I contend that the total number of deportees to the camps is 613,966 not the incorrect 1,274,166 that requires an extra "5" stuck onto the "T" number.
Obviously, Turnagain's contention is wrong and 1,274,166 people had arrived at the AR camps by the end of 1942. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 30, 2022 20:31:47 GMT
Obviously, Turnagain's contention is wrong and 1,274,166 people had arrived at the AR camps by the end of 1942. Where in the telegram or Korherr report are AR camps mentioned? |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jan 31, 2022 10:06:30 GMT
The Hofle telegram is about TII and a claim is being made about it, which Turnagain and been-there are demanding I disprove. They do the same about the function of TII and their allegation it was a transit camp. They cannot evidence that happening, so they demand I evidence it was not a transit camp. The original post more or less asserted a coincidence between the numbers and the Korherr report. It is that which should be discussed, not the function of TII for which there is an existing thread. However, this is in the Treblinka section so I understand where you are coming from. If there are other similar decodes alluding to the Holocaust then they have not been presented so far. What is clear is that there is missing information so joining the dots to make a conclusion is not helpful. The letters on the telegraph could well mean a series of camps in the designated area; for instance the Treblinka camps, the Sobibor camps etc. To assume what is claimed is a leap of faith. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 31, 2022 10:26:04 GMT
This is clearly off topic and a resort to "where did they go". Please discuss the intercepts and nothing else. Thanks. The Hofle telegram is about TII and a claim is being made about it, which Turnagain and been-there are demanding I disprove. They do the same about the function of TII and their allegation it was a transit camp. They cannot evidence that happening, so they demand I evidence it was not a transit camp.
been-there claimed that the Hoefle telegram is the only communication that MAY address the number of people sent to Lublin (Majdanek?) and the AR camps. That's because no other such communication has been located. IOW, it's the only communication known. That's why been-there calls it the only communication. You are apparently demanding that been-there produce another similar communication. Well, he can't. The Hoefle telegram is the only known such communication. Neither do I know of any such similar communication so I can't produce one either. Do you see how that works? We don't know of any further telegrams from Hoefle or anyone else concerning the distribution of Jews throughout the camps. Can you comprehend that? The Hoefle telegram is the only known such communication?
You are apparently claiming that the Hoefle telegram ISN'T the only such communication and that been-there and I must prove that other such communications exist. Well, we can't. We don't know of any other such communications so we can't prove that they exist. You then claim that our failure to produce similar communications is a burden of proof fallacy.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 31, 2022 10:27:36 GMT
Hofle worked in AR, the AR camps being Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka and Majdanek, with Majdanek serving primarily as the reception and sorting centre for the property stolen at the other camps. All of those camps were located in the General Government, which is where most Jews lived.
Korherr refers specifically to the General Government and both he and Hofle use exactly the same total of Jews to the end of 1942. Korherr also records the numbers regarding the other death camp at Chelmno, which was not part of AR, but served the same purpose. Gas the Jews from the local ghettos and steal their property.
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