Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 7, 2022 9:48:24 GMT
Without the original intercepts the transcripts and decodes are nearly worthless as evidence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 10:49:33 GMT
No one disputes the Korherr Report. The Hofle Telegram merely adds some detail to that report and there was already ample evidence of mass transports to the AR camps.
Why forge a telegram that does not change anything already known and not disputed?
Why not forge telegrams about numbers killed, or a running report on the engine used for gassings?
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Post by Sandhurst on Feb 7, 2022 11:34:09 GMT
No one disputes the Korherr Report. The Hofle Telegram merely adds some detail to that report and there was already ample evidence of mass transports to the AR camps. Why forge a telegram that does not change anything already known and not disputed? Why not forge telegrams about numbers killed, or a running report on the engine used for gassings? The Korherr report does not mention AR camps; it is only the Hรถfle telegram that does this. It is a nicely placed abberation out of sequence. This is why Turnagain wishes to view the messages before and after in the correct sequence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 11:48:52 GMT
No one disputes the Korherr Report. The Hofle Telegram merely adds some detail to that report and there was already ample evidence of mass transports to the AR camps. Why forge a telegram that does not change anything already known and not disputed? Why not forge telegrams about numbers killed, or a running report on the engine used for gassings? The Korherr report does not mention AR camps; it is only the Hรถfle telegram that does this. It is a nicely placed abberation out of sequence. This is why Turnagain wishes to view the messages before and after in the correct sequence. Korherr stated in section V
"Number passed through the camps in the General Government 1,274,166 Through the camp at Warthegau 145,301"
The AR camps Sobibor, TII and Belzec were in the General Government, that figure tallies with Hofle. The camp at Chelmno was in the Warthegau. Hofle was provided with the numbers sent to the death camps in AR and the separate operation at the death camp Chelmno.
Korherr was given figures for how many were being killed at the death camps and we now know the Hofle Telegram was one source for those figures. It also explains why the Hofle Telegram is a one off, since that message was being sent for a one off statistical report.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 7, 2022 12:24:37 GMT
No one disputes the Korherr Report. The Hofle Telegram merely adds some detail to that report and there was already ample evidence of mass transports to the AR camps. Why forge a telegram that does not change anything already known and not disputed? Why not forge telegrams about numbers killed, or a running report on the engine used for gassings? The Korherr report does not mention AR camps; it is only the Hรถfle telegram that does this. It is a nicely placed abberation out of sequence. This is why Turnagain wishes to view the messages before and after in the correct sequence. First thing to verify is whether or not an intercept matches the decode/translation. In the previous decode the message is simply marked "missing". How the hell did that happen? Someone drop a bomb on the intercept station? Power go out? What happened? It's said that the messages were probably the same so it wouldn't take many characters to verify that but something apparently prevented the intercept op from copying any part of the message. It was wartime so something catastrophic could have happened but five minutes later the intercept op copied the Hofle message 100%.
Bottom line is taking the Hofle telegram as gospel truth when so many questions remain unresolved isn't rational.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 12:39:57 GMT
The Korherr report does not mention AR camps; it is only the Hรถfle telegram that does this. It is a nicely placed abberation out of sequence. This is why Turnagain wishes to view the messages before and after in the correct sequence. First thing to verify is whether or not an intercept matches the decode/translation. In the previous decode the message is simply marked "missing". How the hell did that happen? Someone drop a bomb on the intercept station? Power go out? What happened? Air raid, power cut, bad reception, operator not that skilled and could not keep up, there are multiple reasons why transmissions could be missed. Since the Hofle Telegram is corroborated and we know who Hofle was, his rank and role, your questioning of the intercept is not a reason to doubt it. You are biased and one of your tactics is to think up excuses to dismiss inconvenient evidence.
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Post by been_there on Feb 7, 2022 12:42:59 GMT
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 13:00:08 GMT
From John Weir; codoh.com/library/document/the-razor-and-the-ring/en/"The basis of the razor is simplicity. A model based on the simplest explanation of the data available is usually the best. Scientists and mathematicians, therefore, strive for simplicity and elegance in their theories describing the physical reality that surrounds them." Weir states about the Korherr Report and what it is referring to where it tallies with the Hofle Telegram; "The conclusion to this conundrum is rather simple. Since there are two choices of how to interpret Holocaust documents..." The conundrum being, were they were "murdered" or they were "transported east"? The answer to the conundrum is which one is evidenced to have happened and which one is not? If one option is evidenced and the other is not, then Occam's Razor tells us to go with what is evidenced. The evidenced choice is the simplest. The unevidenced alternative requires all sorts of machinations, assumptions and conspiracies, in a series of complex and highly unlikely events to achieve.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 7, 2022 13:17:18 GMT
Nessie doesn't know if the Hofle telegram is authentic or not but that's OK. It supports his version of the holyhoax so that guarantees it good as gold.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 13:21:37 GMT
Nessie doesn't know if the Hofle telegram is authentic or not but that's OK. It supports his version of the holyhoax so that guarantees it good as gold. Irving, who has been to the archive and examined the document, stated it is 80% likely genuine. Other historians are satisfied with its authenticity. Your doubts are biased, part of your agenda, part of your tactics and you refuse to make any effort to make your own enquiry. Given the choice, I go with the historians.
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Post by been_there on Feb 7, 2022 13:34:51 GMT
Q. Is there any possibility that this file โfoundโ in 2000 is a clever forgery designed to shore up the โJew-genocide-by-gassingโ mythology that has been so discredited by revisionist researchers?Yes. Researcher David Irving has detailed some of the claimed intercepts anomalies:
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Post by been_there on Feb 7, 2022 13:49:47 GMT
According to Thomas Kues, the decrypt was โfoundโ by Mr. Peter Witte. Peter Witte, a retired teacher of German, politics and economics in Germany, is a freelance historian. He worked as a researcher and historical consultant for the BBC TV production The Nazis.
He has worked in a similar position with German TV productions. Witte is co-editor of Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmler 1941/42 published in 1999. www.fonthill.media/collections/peter-witte
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Feb 7, 2022 13:49:52 GMT
Irving isn't certain that the telegram is authentic. One way that it could be verified is to produce the intercept. Why didn't Witte and Tyas do that? Nessie asks why don't I email the Brits and demand that they send me the original intercept. Suuuuuure, the Brits will detail someone to go dig through a 79 year old file for a certain intercept and send it to me and do it all for free if at all. The real question is why didn't Witte and Tyas extract the intercept from the file while they were in it?
One answer to that could be they were placing the phony decode IN the file so they could "discover it". Without the intercept that can't be known but that suits Nessie just fine. It supports the holyhoax so it's gold.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 16:47:20 GMT
Irving isn't certain that the telegram is authentic. One way that it could be verified is to produce the intercept. Why didn't Witte and Tyas do that? Nessie asks why don't I email the Brits and demand that they send me the original intercept. Suuuuuure, the Brits will detail someone to go dig through a 79 year old file for a certain intercept and send it to me and do it all for free if at all. The real question is why didn't Witte and Tyas extract the intercept from the file while they were in it? One answer to that could be they were placing the phony decode IN the file so they could "discover it". Without the intercept that can't be known but that suits Nessie just fine. It supports the holyhoax so it's gold. Why do you not email the National Archive and just ask them if the original intercepts are archived and if so, can you be supplied with a scanned copy, or it be put online? Witte and Tyas may have looked for the original intercept and may know the answer, or they did not think to do so, as they are not familiar with interception as you are. Why do you think the original intercept would be in the same file?
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 7, 2022 16:53:24 GMT
Irving isn't certain that the telegram is authentic. One way that it could be verified is to produce the intercept. Why didn't Witte and Tyas do that? Nessie asks why don't I email the Brits and demand that they send me the original intercept. Suuuuuure, the Brits will detail someone to go dig through a 79 year old file for a certain intercept and send it to me and do it all for free if at all. The real question is why didn't Witte and Tyas extract the intercept from the file while they were in it? One answer to that could be they were placing the phony decode IN the file so they could "discover it". Without the intercept that can't be known but that suits Nessie just fine. It supports the holyhoax so it's gold. Why do you not email the National Archive and just ask them if the original intercepts are archived and if so, can you be supplied with a scanned copy, or it be put online? Witte and Tyas may have looked for the original intercept and may know the answer, or they did not think to do so, as they are not familiar with interception as you are. Why do you think the original intercept would be in the same file?
its a fair question, arent you british yourself Nessie? Surely emailing these people would be child's play for you.
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