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Post by Prudent_Regret on Jan 16, 2022 17:21:10 GMT
Here is further evidence that the publicโs understanding of the โhโ-narrative is changing. The way in which the Holocaust narrative needs to change is from an understanding of the deaths as having been of an attritional nature (involving work camps and such) to that of the majority of the deaths as having been immediate - mass shootings and death camps. That is the main hangup in the public understanding of the Holocaust which leads some to deny the Holocaust. The public understanding of the Holocaust is muddied up by the work camp component of the Jewish experience during WWII - which gets conflated with the mass murder part of the Jewish experience during WWII. Hundreds of thousands of Jews had attritional deaths during the war but millions were directly and immediately murdered - by bullets and at death camps. For instance every time Tim Kelly brings up the Holocaust on his podcast, he and his cohost stupidly refer to "camps". Their understanding of the Jewish murders is occluded by this "camp" crap. They have in their minds some nonsense understanding that most Jews were sent to work camps or something. And that deaths at work camps were of more significance than they were in "the Holocaust narrative" as you call it. His narrative of the Holocaust in his mind is an ignorant and nonsensical narrative. Practically every American shares this ignorant narrative - the "deniers" as well the ones who don't "deny". Both sides blather on in their ignorant understandings about work camps. The work camps were actually real, that's why Holocaust education blurs the line between Work and Death camp. A vague understanding that these very real work camps served as "death camps" where most of the Holocaust happened is plausible to most people. For my part, when I read what the Holocaust narrative actually claims about Treblinka my reaction was immediate doubt. "THAT's what they are claiming happened?? Hard to believe." The work camp narrative as the engine for the Holocaust is more believable than the actual narrative, so the education system is more than happy to have students believe that these real work camps were "The Holocaust" because that minimizes doubt. Try telling them the Treblinka story of 30 Germans murdering the population of San Francisco with an engine. And tell them they cremated 850k corpses in a small area of a small camp on open-air pyres in 100-something days and buried the cremains in known locations, but we haven't gotten around to actually digging the graves like we would for any other criminal investigation. See if that increases or decreases denial. It's frankly an embarrassing narrative, which is why the real work camps are emphasized and most students will never hear of Treblinka. It's not a bug, it's a feature of Holocaust education that the myth is blurred with the real. |
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Jan 16, 2022 17:48:55 GMT
The way in which the Holocaust narrative needs to change is from an understanding of the deaths as having been of an attritional nature (involving work camps and such) to that of the majority of the deaths as having been immediate - mass shootings and death camps. That is the main hangup in the public understanding of the Holocaust which leads some to deny the Holocaust. The public understanding of the Holocaust is muddied up by the work camp component of the Jewish experience during WWII - which gets conflated with the mass murder part of the Jewish experience during WWII. Hundreds of thousands of Jews had attritional deaths during the war but millions were directly and immediately murdered - by bullets and at death camps. For instance every time Tim Kelly brings up the Holocaust on his podcast, he and his cohost stupidly refer to "camps". Their understanding of the Jewish murders is occluded by this "camp" crap. They have in their minds some nonsense understanding that most Jews were sent to work camps or something. And that deaths at work camps were of more significance than they were in "the Holocaust narrative" as you call it. His narrative of the Holocaust in his mind is an ignorant and nonsensical narrative. Practically every American shares this ignorant narrative - the "deniers" as well the ones who don't "deny". Both sides blather on in their ignorant understandings about work camps. The work camps were actually real, that's why Holocaust education blurs the line between Work and Death camp. A vague understanding that these very real work camps served as "death camps" where most of the Holocaust happened is plausible to most people. For my part, when I read what the Holocaust narrative actually claims about Treblinka my reaction was immediate doubt. "THAT's what they are claiming happened?? Hard to believe." The work camp narrative as the engine for the Holocaust is more believable than the actual narrative, so the education system is more than happy to have students believe that these real work camps were "The Holocaust" because that minimizes doubt. Try telling them the Treblinka story of 30 Germans murdering the population of San Francisco with an engine. And tell them they cremated 850k corpses in a small area of a small camp on open-air pyres in 100-something days and buried the cremains in known locations, but we haven't gotten around to actually digging the graves like we would for any other criminal investigation. See if that increases or decreases denial. It's frankly an embarrassing narrative, which is why the real work camps are emphasized and most students will never hear of Treblinka. It's not a bug, it's a feature of Holocaust education that the myth is blurred with the real. Unfortunately for you, your case implies that the large ghettos which were cleared out and sent to AR camps were sent to camps with no accommodations for such large numbers of people and there was no sensible reason for clearing those ghettos out other than to mass murder those people. The world was aware of the large ghettos, that they were cleared out by the Germans, and that no other areas received the portion of those large populations which were sent to the AR camps. If you believe a contradictory narrative to those people having been mass murdered, you need it to be sensible to the state of affairs and you also need something to evidence that narrative. Otherwise you are basing your narrative on delusionally unevidenced wishful thinking. Your narrative deludes itself with the idea that you don't even need to evidence a purpose for the tiny little AR camps which received such large numbers of people that would contradict the death camp (slaughtering facility) narrative. You yourself, Prudent Regret, look over the evidence of Germans handling large quantities of personal affects of dead Jews (tooth gold, for instance) and foolishly say, "See here those camps were merely for that purpose" - blind to the implications of that - large numbers of people sent there and correspondingly large amounts of personal affects taken from there. Your preposterous manner of not connecting dots on that or even addressing the obvious dot connection is shameful. |
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Jan 16, 2022 18:10:11 GMT
And there is no blurring of work and death camp. That was my point, you idiot. Idiots blur the two.
Persons who know nothing of the details think, for instance, that cremation capacity precludes the possibility of the numbers of murders having happened. But cremation capacity is only any kind of bottleneck in a rare few instances. And in those instances it is alleged that open air cremations were employed. Cremation capacity is simply not an issue with the "narrative". Such is true for each and every supposed issue brought up in Turnagain's link.
Better education will not result in more Holocaust deniers. Hopefully it will enable a more sensible Holocaust denier than one who mixes things up so badly as to be a sick joke in his denialist belief.
Better education will result in a general populace that won't be swayed by stupid denialists who merely deepen their confusions as to what is being claimed. That general population will more readily see stupid arguments for what they are.
And, if this Covid fiasco has shown us anything, it is that people just go along as a herd with what perceived authority tells them. Perceived authorities in the Holocaust will have a less confused herd who will more readily see the bad arguments in most Holocaust denial.
Holocaust denial could work as a conspiracy theory. It needs to explain the loss of those large Jewish communities, though, or it is pissing in the wind.
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Post by ๐๐ฅ๐๐๐ณ๐ง๐จ๐๐ซ on Jan 16, 2022 18:35:14 GMT
Posts have been moved to a new thread more suited to the content. Members who have abused others with pejoratives have been warned.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Jan 16, 2022 23:36:16 GMT
Persons who know nothing of the details think, for instance, that cremation capacity precludes the possibility of the numbers of murders having happened. But cremation capacity is only any kind of bottleneck in a rare few instances. And in those instances it is alleged that open air cremations were employed. Cremation capacity is simply not an issue with the "narrative". Such is true for each and every supposed issue brought up in Turnagain's link. Cremation capacity is absolutely an issue. The alleged rate of cremation at Treblinka, for example, was well over 5,000 corpses every single day for 120 days straight. That is a massive problem to solve, and the entire allegation falls apart with a simple question like: "Where did they get the fuel that would have been needed for this huge operation?" And you're missing my point. How are children indoctrinated with Holocaust propaganda? They are shown gruesome footage of Belsen, Dachau, Nordhausen, etc. How can you deny the Holocaust when you watched that horrible footage of all those bodies when you were a kid? People aren't "idiots" because they blur the line between work camp and "death camp." There is no similar impactful evidence for the "death camp" fantasy, so footage from work camps is the best substitute they have to indoctrinate children. It's not their fault they mix the two up, since they are told to believe "Death camps" based on the footage of the liberation of work camps. The USHMM only last year revised the number of "death camps" down from 6 to 5 after finally acknowledging that Majdanek was a work camp and not a death camp. So you call lay people idiots for blurring the line between work camp and "death camp" but even credentialed historians are still changing their minds in the year 2022. By the way, I've already shown that AR was an economic operation run by the WVHA on order of Himmler governing the SS administration of confiscated property in the General Government and Auschwitz. So I have explained the operational purpose of AR and so-called "AR camps" and why they would be so closely associated with transit camps and the clearing out of the Ghettos. Robbing the Jews was one primary reason to liquidate the Ghettos, but the Ghettos were also seen as a strategic risk for disease, uprisings, and partisan warfare. You can't even prove the arrival of 850k Jews at the camp we call "TII", so the burden is not on Revisionists to prove where every Jew went. If you are claiming that 850k Jews arrived at TII and were murdered there you should prove that. But you can't because it didn't happen. |
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Post by Agandaur on Jan 17, 2022 1:16:21 GMT
If you are claiming that 850k Jews arrived at TII and were murdered there you should prove that. But you can't because it didn't happen. It is really Nessie who carries on with that mantra. In response to Gibsons concerns about the morphing of the Holocaust narrative Jeff numbers had this to say: The morphing is in many ways identical to what non professional historians have been saying for years. Who "we" is, is an important point. He claims to have been well read but couldn't care less what the earlier researchers said. Like Nessie who contradicts himself frequently this charlatan is in the same camp so to speak, possibly the same camp stretcher together. There are some differences, Jeff numbers has rolled over pulling the blankets off Nessie. It seems that the poster does not understand a rout, the carnage being a result of allied interdiction. When the US arrived at Dachau they found a trainfull of dead Jews nearby. ( link) The Dachau death train consisted of nearly forty cars containing the bodies of between two and three thousand prisoners transported to Dachau in the last days of the war. Dachau, Germany, April 29, 1945. It was shot up by US fighters. Similar storie are told about the other camps. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 17, 2022 12:39:54 GMT
The work camps were actually real, that's why Holocaust education blurs the line between Work and Death camp. A vague understanding that these very real work camps served as "death camps" where most of the Holocaust happened is plausible to most people. The camp system was complicated and many camps served more than one purpose. Those who get their information from media reports, get the most simplified basic information, such as Treblinka was a death camp. Dig a bit deeper and Wikipedia or the USHMM entries, Treblinka is still a death camp, but the reader will learn that there were two camps and a bit about its other purpose, the mass theft of the last of the Jew's property. However, its role in Action Reinhardt is not mentioned and the property theft is barely mentioned. An actual history of Treblinka goes into detail about the camp's three functions; gassings, theft of property and occasional supply of workers. Most revisionists barely get past the most basic of media reports and get confused when they find out those reports have missed out the other functions of the camps. I find that surprising, considering the most famous camp, Auschwitz, clearly had multiple functions, from gassings, to theft of property, to supply of workers, to the factory camps such as Monowitz and the imprisonment of political prisoners and POWs. I think when people find out that Auschwitz is the common name for a complex made up of multiple camps, they understand better. Most people are not that interested in history, so they only want a brief summary of the most important part, which in the case of the camps, was such and such a place had gas chambers and other camps were labour camps. That attitude clouds your mind. You should focus on evidence. The Holocaust is such a massive topic, that inevitably it is broken down into parts, which means some important issues, such as the role of property theft, get sidelined. If you get two classes of students and one class is taught in the way you describe, that the narrative iof mass gassings is too incredible to believe and cannot be true and the other class is taught in a far more matter of fact way, presenting the evidence of gassings and what is not evidenced, then you will get one class of deniers and one class who accept the evidence. I have started a thread on how the Holocaust should be taught here; rodoh.freeforums.net/thread/243/teach-holocaust |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 17, 2022 12:42:23 GMT
If you are claiming that 850k Jews arrived at TII and were murdered there you should prove that. But you can't because it didn't happen. It is really Nessie who carries on with that mantra. .... No it is every single historian and person with an enquiring mind who wants to know what did happen. Revisionist claims that all they need to do is debunk gassings and it does not matter what happened instead are unique to them. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 17, 2022 13:01:09 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie now claims that supplying workers was one of the functions of Treblinka although he's previously claimed that less that 1% of Jews sent to Treblinka were "selected" for work. Nessie has morphed those allegedly minor "selections" into a major function of the camp.
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Post by Nessie on Jan 17, 2022 13:21:16 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie now claims that supplying workers was one of the functions of Treblinka although he's previously claimed that less that 1% of Jews sent to Treblinka were "selected" for work. Nessie has morphed those allegedly minor "selections" into a major function of the camp. You admit that I have previously said workers made up 1% of those sent to the camp and I said "occasional supply of workers" in the post above. So, clearly, it is a minor part of the camp's role, not the major role you suggest. You need to stop your dishonest misrepresentations and strawman allegations. Every time you make false claims, they will be highlighted, so that you see just how often you do it. |
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 17, 2022 13:32:13 GMT
Nessie wrote:
You claimed that LESS than 1% of the deportees were "selected for work". You morphed that into "an occasional supply of workers". Give your weasel dodging a rest and quit pretending that you always claimed that one function of Treblinka was to "supply workers".
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Post by Nessie on Jan 17, 2022 14:56:21 GMT
Nessie wrote: You claimed that LESS than 1% of the deportees were "selected for work". You morphed that into "an occasional supply of workers". Give your weasel dodging a rest and quit pretending that you always claimed that one function of Treblinka was to "supply workers". I do not remember saying it was less than 1%, if you can quote me, I will accept that. I do remember saying it was around 1-2%. To describe that as occasional, is not something morphing into something completely different.
I have been referring to worker selections at TII since way back, and you used to dispute that they were being selected for work. I knew already about the selection process at A-B, so it was hardly a surprise to find out it happened at TII, as well. The narrative of people being put into two lines and one line was gassed and the other line was put to work is a famous part of what happened.
Fact is TII had three roles, gassings, property theft and worker selections. The camp is best known for gassings, least known for the worker selections and the property theft was part and parcel of Action Reinhardt. Those three roles also happened at Sobibor and Belzec. Chelmno differs, because the only worker selections were for workers to work at the forest site, and no one is known to have been taken to work at any other camp.
A-B was a concentration camp in 1940, first containing political prisoners, then POWs as well, then Jews and Gypsies. The first gassing was of Soviet POWs in a basement room inside the main building at Auschwitz main camp in 1941. Then the Krema at that camp was converted for gassings in 1942. Then two farmhouses and then the Kremas at Birkenau were modified for gassings, 1943-4. The selections ramp inside Birkenau has been made famous in multiple films and the last Nazi trial of Oskar Groening again referenced the selection process. That is why so many Jews refer to the miracle of their survival, because they got lucky and were selected to work, not be gassed.
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 17, 2022 19:38:47 GMT
The Rabbi spokesman for Vad Yashem claimed that 900,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka. Others have claimed 860,000, 850,000, over one million and so on. Nessie claims that only 6-8,000 were "selected for work". That's less than 1% of the deportees. 2% of the deportees would be 17,000 to 20,000, the number of "selected" deportees claimed by the Hunt video witnesses. 15,000-20,000 is also the number of "selected" deportees that I said and Nessie claimed was bullshit on numerous occasions. Now Nessie is claiming the 15,000 to 20,000 deportees "selected for work" as his own. Gee, whoda' thunk it?
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Post by Nessie on Jan 17, 2022 19:48:07 GMT
The Rabbi spokesman for Vad Yashem claimed that 900,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka. Others have claimed 860,000, 850,000, over one million and so on. Nessie claims that only 6-8,000 were "selected for work". That's less than 1% of the deportees. 2% of the deportees would be 17,000 to 20,000, the number of "selected" deportees claimed by the Hunt video witnesses. 15,000-20,000 is also the number of "selected" deportees that I said and Nessie claimed was bullshit on numerous occasions. Now Nessie is claiming the 15,000 to 20,000 deportees "selected for work" as his own. Gee, whoda' thunk it? More misrepresentation and strawman. I use the 840-860,000 range of arrivals and worker selections in the range of 6-9500, which means a range of around 1%, not less than 1%. You were wrong to claim that I have always said less than 1%. That is why you will never find a quote from me to back up your claim.
In any case, it is minor quibble you use to distract from that number being consistent with worker selections at a death camp, not a transit camp.
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 17, 2022 20:39:14 GMT
Nessie disagrees with the Yad Vashem Rabbi. He goes on to say that 1.1% is the same as 2%. Hey, 9,500 is about the same as 17,200. Well, close enough for Nessie work.
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