Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 2, 2022 8:18:36 GMT
So, more or less any contemporaneous, verified evidence that is not witness evidence.
If witnesses are corroborated by hard evidence, do you then accept the witness evidence as largely truthful?
It depends on the circumstances. The witness cannot just have started making things up or making fantastical claims. They'd have no reason, except dishonesty, to do so. What if a witness says things in a way you think are fantastical and made up, but what they claim is corroborated and they are claiming something physically possible?
For example, a witness describes how they think a gas chambers worked, but they say things that do not appear possible. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of gas chambers. It was physically possible for gas chambers to be built.
Is that witness lying or telling the truth?
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Nazgรปl
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Post by Nazgรปl on Jul 2, 2022 8:58:35 GMT
It depends on the circumstances. The witness cannot just have started making things up or making fantastical claims. They'd have no reason, except dishonesty, to do so. What if a witness says things in a way you think are fantastical and made up, but what they claim is corroborated and they are claiming something physically possible?
For example, a witness describes how they think a gas chambers worked, but they say things that do not appear possible. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of gas chambers. It was physically possible for gas chambers to be built.
Is that witness lying or telling the truth?
Perhaps they are confused with a preconceived bias due to the propaganda. This was the intended effect of that propaganda. |
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Jul 2, 2022 9:27:23 GMT
It depends on the circumstances. The witness cannot just have started making things up or making fantastical claims. They'd have no reason, except dishonesty, to do so. What if a witness says things in a way you think are fantastical and made up, but what they claim is corroborated and they are claiming something physically possible?
For example, a witness describes how they think a gas chambers worked, but they say things that do not appear possible. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of gas chambers. It was physically possible for gas chambers to be built.
Is that witness lying or telling the truth?
Ok. First off the witness, speaks of fantastical events. Then we have documents about the buildings they talk about that contradicts them. We have indeed physical evidence of gas chambers, i.e. for executions in the USA or for clothing in Auschwitz. These are altogether different devices. Further no such fantastic device as claimed was ever built in history nor does such a device as claimed have any design theory, budget or plan. Then of course, we have also the little lies the 'witness's sneaks in also about what they did during these events, actions which would necessarily have killed or injured them given normal human physiology. Then we have the technical problems with such a device as claimed. Then the lack of any physical trace. Then the surrounding evidence of the behaviour of the camp authorities from original pre 45 documents which contradicts these claims. So by these various facts, such a witness is a damned liar lying to save his own skin or he/she/they are ignorant men who believe the rumours they are told in the camp then make fanciful tales against their enemies for social credit or they are both and im happy to go over the details about said gas chambers. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 2, 2022 13:55:08 GMT
What if a witness says things in a way you think are fantastical and made up, but what they claim is corroborated and they are claiming something physically possible?
For example, a witness describes how they think a gas chambers worked, but they say things that do not appear possible. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of gas chambers. It was physically possible for gas chambers to be built.
Is that witness lying or telling the truth?
Ok. First off the witness, speaks of fantastical events. Then we have documents about the buildings they talk about that contradicts them. Regarding the Kremas, the documents do not contradict the witnesses, they corroborate them. So, you claim that the Germans could design and engineer gas chambers to delouse clothing, but it was beyond them to build a gas chamber to kill people. I do not believe that. It is a simple process to convert by adding gas tight doors, having holes in the roof, a mesh device to drop the Zyklon B into and then ventilate. Witnesses are not as good as describing what they saw, as you think they should be. There is no technical issue that was beyond German abilities to overcome. There are physical traces. Hundreds of thousands of people arrive, very few leave, but lots of their clothing and personal property leaves and there are mass cremations. Your suggestion everyone lied and no one came forward to tell the truth, is pure conspiracy theorist, and totally unrealistic. |
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Jul 2, 2022 21:00:59 GMT
Regarding the Kremas, the documents do not contradict the witnesses, they corroborate them. Topf invoices 171 and 179 contradict them Why should I consider what you happen to believe to be relevant? No competent technical study exists to show this. Witnesses lie and / or distort. True. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying they overcome issues in a way that fits your theory. Without any plans or technical backing in a massive military camp where documentation abounded and was standard practice. Nor is there any chemistry science backing or any text book of how this fantasy was done. They did in fact overcome technical issues and they did in fact build gas chambers for clothes and even deloused rooms. Yes, which show no one was gassed. Yes. All normal stuff. But wait. They gassed, cremated and buried their suitcases too? Did you get that from Mueller? He literally ate cakes covered in zyklon falling out a suitcase. Its completely realistic. History has never been short of liars or even those who go along with lies. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 3, 2022 7:37:12 GMT
Regarding the Kremas, the documents do not contradict the witnesses, they corroborate them. Topf invoices 171 and 179 contradict them Please link to those invoices and we can discuss them further. My belief is based on evidence. Mass gassings are evidenced to have happened. The suggestions that the Kremas were used throughout 1943 and 1944 for mass showering, delousing or as bomb shelters is not evidenced to have happened. As for a technical study, German engineers confirm it was technically possible. We can find out which, by corroboration. There were no great technical issues to overcome. The work required to the Kremas was straightforward. Holes in the roof, a ventilation system, make the chambers look like showers and fit gas tight solid doors. Stop pretending that is way beyond what is believable. Which prove Zyklon B was used inside the Leichenkellers. Just because the traces are not as high as someone thinks they should be, does not matter. Your belief in a massive conspiracy, whereby nearly a million Jews were hidden by the Nazis, knowing that they were being accused of killing them, is idiotic. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 19, 2022 23:46:29 GMT
Nessie wrote:
LOL! Nessie claims that anyone who believes that rulers/kings, governments, political and special interest groups are incapable of massive conspiracies is an idiot. As the Aussies say, I'm gobsmacked.
"Conspiracy theory" was a term coined by the CIA to neutralize those who were exposing their machinations. With the advent of PCs and the internet the "conspiracy theory" accusation is losing some of its efficacy. With Nessie, not so much.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Jul 20, 2022 0:03:09 GMT
With Nessie, not so much. Nessie being a retired Sheriff no doubt did his portion of planting bullet casings etc at the crime scene. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 20, 2022 1:41:56 GMT
Agandaur wrote:
That's not as far-fetched as it first seems. Nessie's constant use of "what ifs" and his excuses shows a predisposition to "help" the actual evidence. I'm not prepared to outright call him a dishonest investigator but he has shown an inordinate willingness to "stretch the truth". I certainly wouldn't put full faith in the honesty of an investigation by Nessie.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 20, 2022 8:08:28 GMT
Nessie wrote: LOL! Nessie claims that anyone who believes that rulers/kings, governments, political and special interest groups are incapable of massive conspiracies is an idiot. As the Aussies say, I'm gobsmacked. "Conspiracy theory" was a term coined by the CIA to neutralize those who were exposing their machinations. With the advent of PCs and the internet the "conspiracy theory" accusation is losing some of its efficacy. With Nessie, not so much. There is no way that the USA and western Europe, would cooperate with eastern Europe and the USSR during the Cold War, to sustain a hoax about mass gassing Jews. There is also no way every university would cooperate, or journalists. Then there is the issue of getting all the Jews to cooperate by playing dead and all the Nazis to cooperate by agreeing to lie that they killed them.
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