Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 1, 2022 9:20:34 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Then YOU write to Staffs Uni for copies of the GPR profiles since you're the one claiming that they exist. Your claim that the scans exist is just your supposition. Let's see the scans or give it a rest.
Well, hallelujah, finally a straight answer. There's NO PROOF that any cremains exist in or around Treblinka.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 1, 2022 11:18:40 GMT
Nessie wrote: Then YOU write to Staffs Uni for copies of the GPR profiles since you're the one claiming that they exist. Your claim that the scans exist is just your supposition. Let's see the scans or give it a rest. You are the one who demands to see every scan image, it is up to you to write to them. Proof of cremains does not exclusively come from lab testing. Physical examination by trained archaeologists and forensic scientists is also a means to reliably prove the existence of cremains. Witness, documentary and circumstantial evidence can reliably prove where the cremains came from.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 1, 2022 12:17:16 GMT
The GPR profiles no longer exist at Staffs Uni. That's my supposition and that's just as good a supposition as yours for claiming that the GPR profiles do exist.
Uh-huh and Lukaszkiewicz's coroner could tell at a glance that the mixed earth and cremains were human cremains. Colls claimed to have found cremains on the surface at Treblinka and could tell at a glance that not only were they human cremains but were from Treblinka cremations although Rajchman testified that the carbonized bones of the cremated were beaten into a powder "as fine as cigarette ash.
The question is, why would the Germans bother to pulverize the carbonized bones to powder instead of simply throwing them back into an empty grave? Why did the Germans think that they could hide ~4,300,000 lbs of cremains by burying them? The Germans didn't cremate and bury the cremains, the holyhoax liars needed a reason for why there weren't any bodies.
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Post by been_there on Aug 1, 2022 15:02:43 GMT
The definition has been explained to you numerous times. Alas to no avail. All you can do is parrot someone elseโs definition mindlessly. Yet you cannot apply it to the holyhoax pseudo-historical claim of mass-gassings. Turnagain just explained to you some empirical evidence that he would accept as proof of the T2 narrative. But you didnโt appear to notice. Which further supports the view you donโt know what it is. You can only cut and paste a definition without comprehending it. He said he would accept "GPR profiles followed by excavations and a laboratory analysis of the cremains would do it." Do you regard that as "empirical evidence"? See that, Turnagain! This reply (and question) is further proof that Nessie is a person who STILL does not understand what โempiricalโ means. ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐ No wonder the approach to the H-mythology from this person is only to obediently โbelieveโ it, and is not capable of analysing its component parts rationally and independently. No! That is not true. I hope others reading can see what is occurring here. What EVERY honest and intelligent person who is familiar with the subject KNOWS is that THERE IS NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE OF 725,000 CADAVERS BURIED AND DISINTERRED AT TREBLNKA 2!!!! It is not a matter of opinion. It has nothing to do with what myself or Turnagain are โwilling to acceptโ. It is the AMOUNT of claimed corpses that has no empirical evidence supporting it. This has been explained numerous times. The problem is Nessieโs comprehension disabilities. This reply is very revealing. Nessie stated what she would accept as โempirical evidenceโ. She didnโt reply with what there is already. This reply is therefore a tacit admission that there is no empirical evidence at present for the claimed amount of bodies (725,000). She will therefore probably censor this reply, like she did the others that demonstrate her dishonesty and disconnect from objective reality.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 1, 2022 15:41:40 GMT
The GPR profiles no longer exist at Staffs Uni. That's my supposition and that's just as good a supposition as yours for claiming that the GPR profiles do exist. Her report shows the area scanned and images from those scans. An exhibition of the work also showed images. Are you now claiming the images have been destroyed? He could tell that the skulls and other identifiable remains were human. The report spoke of; vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html"...recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains..." "Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[[208]] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay." "...the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding." You have previously claimed the pyre found at Ohrdruf was not like the pyres at TII, because the bodies are partially cremated. But the same was found at TII. This has been explained to you before, but yet again, your memory is shot. The "cremains" found at TII were not just the little bits of bone C S-C found during the walk over survey. They were mixed in with identifiable human remains. C S-C report includes photos of human remains photographed when the memorial was built in 1960; etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/3531/1/SturdyColls12PhD.pdf"Plate 4.10. Human remains found in advance of the construction of the memorial at Treblinka II" When the cremains include identifiable human remains, then that is proof the cremains are human. As many of the remains were ground down as possible, but the evidence is that not every single body was retrieved and not all corpses were ground to ash. That is why the Ohrdruf pyre is comparable to what happened at TII. The Nazis cremated the bodies to prevent a body count and identification. They also left the site guarded. They did not need to a perfect job, they just needed to do as much as possible to prevent a site survey like the one they had conducted at Katyn.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 1, 2022 16:38:17 GMT
He said he would accept "GPR profiles followed by excavations and a laboratory analysis of the cremains would do it." Do you regard that as "empirical evidence"? See that, Turnagain! This reply (and question) is further proof that Nessie is a person who STILL does not understand what โempiricalโ means. ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐ No wonder the approach to the H-mythology from this person is only to obediently โbelieveโ it, and is not capable of analysing its component parts rationally and independently. No! That is not true. I hope others reading can see what is occurring here. What EVERY honest and intelligent person who is familiar with the subject KNOWS is that THERE IS NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE OF 725,000 CADAVERS BURIED AND DISINTERRED AT TREBLNKA 2!!!! It is not a matter of opinion. It has nothing to do with what myself or Turnagain are โwilling to acceptโ. It is the AMOUNT of claimed corpses that has no empirical evidence supporting it. This has been explained numerous times. The problem is Nessieโs comprehension disabilities. This reply is very revealing. Nessie stated what she would accept as โempirical evidenceโ. She didnโt reply with what there is already. This reply is therefore a tacit admission that there is no empirical evidence at present for the claimed amount of bodies (725,000). She will therefore probably censor this reply, like she did the others that demonstrate her dishonesty and disconnect from objective reality. You are still dodging clearly stating what you would accept as "empirical evidence" of human remains at TII. What would you accept as empirical evidence of 725,000 bodies at the site?
The evidence historians use to prove such a huge number of bodies at TII comes from;
1 - The 1944 aerial photo shows disturbed ground covering about a third of the camp or 5.66 hectares, in particular where the Totenlager and main mass graves were located and rectangular outlines in the Lazaret section of the camp where at least one mass grave was reported.
2 - The 1945 survey found large areas of disturbed ground, including a section of 2 hectares of buried cremated human remains, in various states from ashes to identifiable human bones and still decomposing remains.
3 - The 1960 memorialisation work on the site also found cremated and identifiable human remains and to stop grave robbing, covered large parts of the camp with concrete.
4 - The 2014 survey found geophysical evidence of large areas of disturbed ground that had not been covered by the memorial and smaller cremains could still be found on the surface.
5 - The circumstantial evidence from documents and witnesses of hundreds of thousands of people sent to TII with only a few thousand leaving.
That is photos, physical remains, forensic, geophysical, archaeological and circumstantial evidence of large numbers buried at TII, in an area large enough to contain the remains of 725,000 people.
So, when you bang on about "no empirical evidence" what exactly are you talking about? Cut out your crap and just simply answer the questions I have asked, using the "he" pronoun I have asked you to use and without your running commentary on what you think of me.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 1, 2022 17:29:56 GMT
The 1944 aerial photo isn't empirical proof of mass graves. Lukaszkiewicz's claims are unsubstantiated and empirical proof of nothing. The memorial work presented no empirical proof of mass graves and the cremains of hundreds of thousands the same as Colls. Circumstantial evidence isn't empirical proof of anything. Your claims of empirical evidence are pure horse frocky.
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Post by been_there on Aug 1, 2022 18:05:01 GMT
... What would you accept as empirical evidence of 725,000 bodies at the site?
The evidence historians use to prove such a huge number of bodies at TII comes from;
1 - The 1944 aerial photo shows disturbed ground covering about a third of the camp...
2 - The 1945 survey found large areas of disturbed ground, including a section of 2 hectares of buried cremated human remains, in various states from ashes to identifiable human bones and still decomposing remains.
3 - The 1960 memorialisation work on the site also found cremated and identifiable human remains and to stop grave robbing, covered large parts of the camp with concrete.
4 - The 2014 survey found geophysical evidence of large areas of disturbed ground that had not been covered by the memorial and smaller cremains could still be found on the surface...
That is photos, physical remains, forensic, geophysical, archaeological and circumstantial evidence of large numbers buried at TII, in an area large enough to contain the remains of 725,000 people.
So, when you bang on about "no empirical evidence" what exactly are you talking about?...
๐ฎ๐คฆโโ๏ธ So it appears that in Nessieโs world of โcrazy Holyhoax-logicโ: 1a. ANY amount of disturbed ground and 2a. ANY amount of cremains is โempirical evidenceโ of 1b. graves that could fit 725,000 bodies and 2b.cremains of 850,000 bodies!! ๐คช๐คช๐คช
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 1, 2022 19:37:54 GMT
The 1944 aerial photo isn't empirical proof of mass graves. No one is claiming that it is. It is one of the various pieces of evidence that prove mass graves. The photo on its own is good enough evidence to prove that one section was used for the living camp, the Totenlager has a large area of disturbed ground and the Lazaret has rectangular outlines, which are indicative of graves. What do you mean by that? You bang on about empirical evidence as if it is some sort of special form of evidence and only it is acceptable. Historians (and journalists and the police) when investigating past events, use evidence from eyewitnesses, documents, physical items, photos, forensics, archaeology and circumstances. The evidence then determines what is proved to have happened. The term empirical evidence applies to scientific study, whereby a proof is arrived at by observation and/or experimentation. An experiment, as such, can be conducted to see if ground had been disturbed or not, using boreholes, excavations or GPR. An observation, as such, could be conducted to see what is on the surface of the ground, with a walk over survey. That is the science of archaeology, which overlaps with history and provides evidence for historians to study.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 1, 2022 19:50:07 GMT
The evidence historians use to prove such a huge number of bodies at TII comes from;
1 - The 1944 aerial photo shows disturbed ground covering about a third of the camp...
2 - The 1945 survey found large areas of disturbed ground, including a section of 2 hectares of buried cremated human remains, in various states from ashes to identifiable human bones and still decomposing remains.
3 - The 1960 memorialisation work on the site also found cremated and identifiable human remains and to stop grave robbing, covered large parts of the camp with concrete.
4 - The 2014 survey found geophysical evidence of large areas of disturbed ground that had not been covered by the memorial and smaller cremains could still be found on the surface...
That is photos, physical remains, forensic, geophysical, archaeological and circumstantial evidence of large numbers buried at TII, in an area large enough to contain the remains of 725,000 people.
So, when you bang on about "no empirical evidence" what exactly are you talking about?...
๐ฎ๐คฆโโ๏ธ So it appears that in Nessieโs world of โcrazy Holyhoax-logicโ: 1a. ANY amount of disturbed ground and 2a. ANY amount of cremains is โempirical evidenceโ of 1b. graves that could fit 725,000 bodies and 2b.cremains of 850,000 bodies!! ๐คช๐คช๐คช Not any amount. The amounts need to be large to fit so many bodies.
The area of the camp where the main mass graves were located is about 5.66 hectares, or 13.9 acres, and the 1945 survey found one area of disturbed ground containing cremated remains that was 2 hectares, or 5 acres and an excavation found it went down to 7m deep. The 2014 survey found large pits round the memorial, some of which extended under the memorial.
Those are large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains, consistent with massive mass graves to bury hundreds of thousands of bodies.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 6, 2022 14:37:45 GMT
Colls claimed to have found an outer perimeter to the camp which increased the size of the camp to 17 hectares. However, her map shows that the inner perimeter of the camp stayed the same at about 13+ hectares.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 6, 2022 14:46:42 GMT
The best evidence for the size of the camp is the 1944 aerial photo.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 6, 2022 15:11:34 GMT
Nessie wrote:
The aerial photo shows the camp to be about 13 hectares. Coll's survey increased the size of the camp by about 4 hectares, the area of the outer perimeter.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Aug 6, 2022 15:21:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: The aerial photo shows the camp to be about 13 hectares. Coll's survey increased the size of the camp by about 4 hectares, the area of the outer perimeter. It shows how much of the camp was dug over, large rectangular outlines and the buildings left to house the guard responsible to keep grave robber away from the site.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 6, 2022 15:35:21 GMT
Coll's map shows the original camp and her survey of the outer perimeter.
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