Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 10:18:35 GMT
Evidence;
"objects, documents, official statements, etc. that are used to prove something is true or not true, especially for legal or insurance purposes"
Historical evidence;
"Historical evidence can take a variety of forms. Among the most important types of historical evidence are primary sources. Primary sources consist of original documents, artifacts, or other pieces of information that were created at the time under study. So, if we are studying World War II, primary sources would include everything from letters written by soldiers to girlfriends and wives back home to government documents to photographs to physical uniforms and equipment.
Primary sources can be wide-ranging. Battlefield film footage is a primary source because it was filmed right then and there, at that moment in history. Primary sources are usually more valued than secondary sources. Secondary sources contain useful information, but typically involve an analysis of primary source material. Books and magazines are common examples of secondary sources.
Another important type of historical evidence is oral tradition. Oral tradition consists of stories that are not written down but passed on verbally, usually from an eyewitness to succeeding generations. Oral tradition, or oral history as it is also called, is sometimes considered a primary source, although there is debate as to where it theoretically fits as a source. In a lot of ways, it is in a class of its own. Oral tradition is especially important to historians studying various ethnic groups whose history may not be well-documented in writing."
Evidence pertaining to the Holocaust comes from;
- eyewitnesses, for example the people who worked inside the A-B kremas and saw what happened there.
- documents, for example the Hofle Telegram, recording mass arrivals at the AR camps.
- physical items, for example the personal property found buried at the AR camps and left behind at A-B
- photos, for example the selection process at Birkenau when the Hungarian Jews arrived at the camp
- archaeological and forensic studies, for example the work at the AR camps
- circumstances, for example the AR documents recording the seizure of all Jewish property
Evidence does not come from arguing
- the gas chambers as described could not work - all the witnesses lied - pyres on metal rails could not work - claims all the Nazis were coerced into false confessions - calculations on the size of graves and space to bury bodies
They are merely fallacious arguments dressed up to appear as evidence. Revisionist/deniers fall for those fallacious arguments and that is why they fall for the Holocaust denier hoax.
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 18:54:16 GMT
Revisionist/deniers fall for those fallacious arguments and that is why they fall for the Holocaust denier hoax. Lets examine some deficiencies in Nessies methodology: Witnesses lie, can be coerced; this is more pertinant when there is a huge Soviet Government Commission, a huge staff to assist, backed up by a murderous Secret Police. Documents can be incriminating, such as orders, letters, but an Intelligence Intercept (Hoefle telegram) is hardly compelling. This can be easily be attached to any position to support a claim. What is needed is a real paper trail which auditors use to determine if serious fraud etc is committed. Physical Items can be important, to show a murder weapon, the knife or gun used. This has been used by Police in the past to "plant" incriminating evidence, such as bullet shells. In any place where there are hundreds of people, there are going to be items dropped; this only indicates people were there. Photos are great, but have been forged, even in the days before photoshop; the old forum had a whole thread dedicated to this. It has been asked why the photos are obscure, ambiguous when a real spy would have taken real damning evidence. Zabecki would have shown the real smoke coming from TII from cremations, not the aftermath of some rebellion. The photos in existence show nothing untoward in reality; no queues of people lining to go to gas chambers, no smoke. Just a photo of what could be a rubbish burn off. Archaeological studies would be helpful if they found anything that suggests murder of the claimed magnitude. What was found could easily be explained by mundane events such as dead people arriving by train and typhus. Circumstances The reality is that all prisoners world wide are releived of their possessions. No one denies this happened to the Jews; in fact Prudent Regret explained clearly this was Aktion Reinhardt. How can questioning the above be regarded as a hoax of any kind. Once again this a mind reversal as though the Holocaust claims were an established fact set in stone; in fact all the claims are very much on quicksand. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:21:05 GMT
Of course all forms of evidence can be bogus. That is not what the thread is about. The thread is about what counts as evidence and what does not.
If something is presented as evidence, its source and reliability has to be checked.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 5, 2022 22:39:17 GMT
Nessie's witnesses to gas chambers, graves, exhumations and cremations on the magic Jew barbeque are neither reliable nor credible. Nessie fails right out of the gate.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 6, 2022 9:53:58 GMT
Nessie's witnesses to gas chambers, graves, exhumations and cremations on the magic Jew barbeque are neither reliable nor credible. Nessie fails right out of the gate. You do not have a credible or reliable methodology for determining witness truthfulness. You do not even understand the difference between truthfulness, reliability or credibility. You have no experience of taking witness statements. You have no learning about witness evidence. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 14:19:27 GMT
In another thread, been-there has claimed; rodoh.info/post/2727/thread"I leave it to the sagacity of the fair-minded reader to ascertain: 1.) whether the Sturdy-Colls archeological research finding NO evidence of pits large enough to cremate 750,000 to 900,000 bodies is โoff-topicโ, and 2.) whether claiming my analysis is โfaultyโ without explaining why, is further demonstration of the exact โbelieverโ mindset I just identified" Maybe he would be prepared to explain by what he means by C S-C found no evidence and his subsequent analysis of that supposed, no evidence. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 8, 2022 18:52:49 GMT
Nessie wrote:
There is the physically possible and the physically impossible. A brick building will not withstand multiple atms of pressure whether by vacuum or external source. Bodies can't be totally cremated using nothing but twigs, brush, etc. The little boy didn't ride his tricycle to the moon and your claims about truthfulness reliability or credibility are bull[excrement].
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 19:21:21 GMT
Nessie wrote: There is the physically possible and the physically impossible. A brick building will not withstand multiple atms of pressure whether by vacuum or external source. You are assuming the vacuum claims are correct. Bear in mind, you have suggested witnesses said vacuums were created, but on examining what they said, they just said air was pumped out so people would suffocate. That would not require the creation of a vacuum, it only needs enough air to reduce the oxygen content, which would drop anyway in an enclosed space, as lots of people breathe. You have cherry-picked the witnesses who said the least amount of wood and ignored others who just said wood was used. Argument about possibility, is not evidence, when what is being claimed by many of the witnesses, is possible. It is possible to gas with an engine. It is possible to cremate on a metal grate over wood. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 8, 2022 19:52:23 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Oh, of course, I forgot. Those witnesses just made a little (heh-heh) "mistake". How silly of me to have forgotten that.
So name and quote the witnesses who stated that adequate amounts of wood were used to cremate the Jews.
It's possible for a little boy to ride a tricycle. It isn't possible for him to ride it to the moon.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 20:10:06 GMT
Nessie wrote: Oh, of course, I forgot. Those witnesses just made a little (heh-heh) "mistake". How silly of me to have forgotten that. The mistake was yours. You claimed witnesses said a vacuum had been created, whereas they had merely said air was pumped out, so people would suffocate. You constantly misrepresent what others say. I have done so before, where I linked you to Nazi testimony; www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/arperpsspeak.htmlGley "First a wood fire was kindled under the iron grate." Matthes "The wood was doused with petrol." Note the source of wood for Sobibor is referenced Bauer "Part of the trolleys and rails originated from the sawmill that bordered the Sobibor camp. Additional trolleys and rails arrived by train from Trawniki. There is evidence of the heat generated Stangl "I know that in the beginning in Treblinka they used rails from the trolley to build the cremation grill. But it turned out that these were too weak and bent in the heat. They were replaced with real railroad rails. Eye witnesses who were there and saw what happened, is evidence. Argument is not. Multiple witnesses speak to the pyres working. That you do not think they were possible, does not matter. |
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