Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 7, 2022 18:33:55 GMT
Nessie wrote: Of course it's believable that the Germans piled bodies as a backlog to transporting them for burial. Cadavers were recovered and brought to the Altmarkt faster than they could be transported to burial facilities. The lack of transport is documented. Hence the cremations, which you claim were by pouring fuel over bodies and setting them alight, without any evidence of that happening. There is smoke rising from the pyres in various photos, which is evidence they had been set alight. That the colourised photos had the flames colourised, is evidence they were set alight. Your claim that the German form of pyre is a physical impossibility, is contradicted by multiple sources of evidence.
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Post by Charles Traynor on Jan 7, 2022 18:57:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: IOW it has no value as a historical document. At least you agree that the photo has been altered. Nessieโs intention by posting altered colourised images is not just to make a mockery of this discussion but to also dishonestly confuse newcomers to this subject. Casual surfers unused to True Believer deceptions would consider the raging infernos seen in Nessieโs colourised propaganda images to be the real deal, whereas NO original black and white photograph of the alleged Altmarkt cremations seen here shows such a thing occurring.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 7, 2022 19:12:32 GMT
Nessie at first claims that he knows how much wood is under the Dresden I-beams. He doesn't. He then claims that cremating hundreds of cadavers with his imaginary wood is possible. It isn't. The amount of fuel necessary to evaporate the water from a cadaver is known. Nessie's claim that twigs, brush or some imaginary wood is sufficient is idiotic. Nessie apparently believes that the eeevul Narzis had supernatural aid/abilities to perform cremations.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 7, 2022 19:34:42 GMT
Nessie wrote: IOW it has no value as a historical document. At least you agree that the photo has been altered. Nessieโs intention by posting altered colourised images is not just to make a mockery of this discussion but to also dishonestly confuse newcomers to this subject. Casual surfers unused to True Believer deceptions would consider the raging infernos seen in Nessieโs colourised propaganda images to be the real deal, whereas NO original black and white photograph of the alleged Altmarkt cremations seen here shows such a thing occurring. Who colourised the photos and when? At the moment, we do not know, so, for all we know, it was arranged by the photographer himself.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 7, 2022 19:39:00 GMT
Nessie at first claims that he knows how much wood is under the Dresden I-beams. Yet another one of your inventions. Link to and quote me saying how much wood is under the rails. You cannot, because you have yet again made up a strawman claim. I know I don't and neither do you. What is causing all of the smoke/steam here? 
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 7, 2022 22:34:24 GMT
Nessie wrote:
It could have been added to the photograph after it was taken.
BTW, if you didn't claim that the space under the I-beams was filled with wood, what are you claiming as the fuel for cremating the cadavers?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 10:47:31 GMT
Nessie wrote: It could have been added to the photograph after it was taken. Of course, you have no evidence of that. You have no evidence the pyres were to store the bodies. You have no evidence the cremations were by pouring petrol on corpses on the ground and setting them on fire. But, not having evidence does not bother you. You said "Nessie at first claims that he knows how much wood is under the Dresden I-beams. He doesn't.". I said there was wood under the beams, I never said how much, you made that up, as you do so often. You cannot argue against my actual claims, so in almost every post, you make up a strawman to argue against that.
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Post by been_there on Jan 8, 2022 13:57:33 GMT
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 14:08:09 GMT
From the same source, pages 234, 235;
"The Steel girders had been winched out of the ruins of the Renner department store on the Altmarkt and these had been laid across crudely collected piles of sandstone blocks. A gigantic grill over twenty-feet long was being erected. Under the steel girders and bars were poked bundles of wood and straw. On top of the grill were heaped the corpses, four or five hundred at a time, with more straw between each layer. The soldiers trampled up and down on top of this rotting heap, straightening the victims, trying to make room for more, and carefully building the stack. Many of the dead children sand- wiched into these terrible pyres were still wearing the colourful carnival clothes that they had donned so eagerly two weeks before. Finally gallons of gasoline, sorely needed though it was throughout the whole Reich, were poured over the stacks of victims. A senior officer cleared the Altmarkt square of all unnecessary by-standers, and set a match to the heap."
....
"In spite of their attempts to keep secret the fate of the victims who had been swallowed up by the ruined emptiness of the inner city, the story did leak out. Some citizens, risking their lives, made their way to the Altmarkt to check on the rumours. Walter Hahn, a veteran pho- tographer who had spent his life capturing this โFlorence of the Elbeโ and the surrounding countryside on film, obtained an official pass signed by the gauleiter on February ๏ฒ๏ต, and took a score of photographs of the infernal scene in black and white and colourโpho- tographs which helped belay the allegations that the โmass funeral pyresโ were a product of Dr Goebbelsโ propaganda."
Irving is clear that the cremations are evidence and happened.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 14:14:06 GMT
The full quote is
"I.e., precisely ten times the โ๏ถ,๏ธ๏ถ๏ตโ cremated according to the March ๏ฑ๏ต, ๏ฑ๏น๏ด๏ต docu- ment found in east Germany in ๏ฑ๏น๏ถ๏ต. This seems the more probable figure, since each pyre contained hundreds, rather than thousands of bodies. As for the police casual- ties, the authentic document contains figures not wildly different: it listed one hundred and eight police officers as dead or missing after the raids, and ๏ด๏ท๏ฐ fire- brigade police (Feuerschutzpolizei) officers including ๏ฑ๏ฒ๏น Ukrainians and ninety-nine from Silesia."
Irving believes the lower figure. The figure multiplied by ten, is propaganda, as irving states
"Dr Goebbels had already begun his propaganda machinations." The Nazis grossly inflated the dead at Dresden, based on the genuine figures provided by the local police, which are corroborated by the photos showing pyres of hundreds, not thousands of bodies.
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Post by been_there on Jan 8, 2022 14:22:29 GMT
From the same source, pages 234, 235; "The Steel girders had been winched out of the ruins of the Renner department store on the Altmarkt and these had been laid across crudely collected piles of sandstone blocks. A gigantic grill over twenty-feet long was being erected. Under the steel girders and bars were poked bundles of wood and straw. On top of the grill were heaped the corpses, four or five hundred at a time, with more straw between each layer. The soldiers trampled up and down on top of this rotting heap, straightening the victims, trying to make room for more, and carefully building the stack. Many of the dead children sandwiched into these terrible pyres were still wearing the colourful carnival clothes that they had donned so eagerly two weeks before. Finally gallons of gasoline, sorely needed though it was throughout the whole Reich, were poured over the stacks of victims. A senior officer cleared the Altmarkt square of all unnecessary by-standers, and set a match to the heap.
...Some citizens, risking their lives, made their way to the Altmarkt to check on the rumours. Walter Hahn, a veteran photographer who had spent his life capturing this โFlorence of the Elbeโ and the surrounding countryside on film, obtained an official pass signed by the gauleiter on February 25th, and took a score of photographs of the infernal scene in black and white and colour โ photographs which helped belay the allegations that the โmass funeral pyresโ were a product of Dr Goebbelsโ propaganda."โโโโโโโโ Irving is clear that the cremations are evidence and happened. Yes, Irving is clear that bodies were burnt on grates using straw and โgallons of petrolโ I also am clear about that. I am also clear that Walter Hahn took colour photographs of it. These details have never been disputed by me.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 14:34:48 GMT
From the same source, pages 234, 235; "The Steel girders had been winched out of the ruins of the Renner department store on the Altmarkt and these had been laid across crudely collected piles of sandstone blocks. A gigantic grill over twenty-feet long was being erected. Under the steel girders and bars were poked bundles of wood and straw. On top of the grill were heaped the corpses, four or five hundred at a time, with more straw between each layer. The soldiers trampled up and down on top of this rotting heap, straightening the victims, trying to make room for more, and carefully building the stack. Many of the dead children sandwiched into these terrible pyres were still wearing the colourful carnival clothes that they had donned so eagerly two weeks before. Finally gallons of gasoline, sorely needed though it was throughout the whole Reich, were poured over the stacks of victims. A senior officer cleared the Altmarkt square of all unnecessary by-standers, and set a match to the heap.
...Some citizens, risking their lives, made their way to the Altmarkt to check on the rumours. Walter Hahn, a veteran photographer who had spent his life capturing this โFlorence of the Elbeโ and the surrounding countryside on film, obtained an official pass signed by the gauleiter on February 25th, and took a score of photographs of the infernal scene in black and white and colour โ photographs which helped belay the allegations that the โmass funeral pyresโ were a product of Dr Goebbelsโ propaganda."โโโโโโโโ Irving is clear that the cremations are evidence and happened. Yes, Irving is clear that bodies were burnt on grates using straw and โgallons of petrolโ I also am clear about that. I am also clear that Walter Hahn took colour photographs of it. These details have never been disputed by me. Your wording is ambiguous. Do you accept the evidence presented by Irving is sufficient to prove that cremations took place on the Altmarkt, whereby bodies were cremated on rails over wood, as seen in the Hahn photographs?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 8, 2022 15:21:26 GMT
Irving seems to be ignorant of the "redneck bonfire" effect of gasoline and the redneck used only five gallons of gasoline. Why can't people comprehend that under such circumstances as described for the cremation of the bodies in the Altmarkt would result in a fairly massive explosion? Then we have the problem of why the photographer took photos of the pile of cadavers but why didn't he photograph the supposed cremains? Why are we left with nothing but speculations when a photographer was on site to record what actually happened?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2022 15:35:30 GMT
Irving seems to be ignorant of the "redneck bonfire" effect of gasoline and the redneck used only five gallons of gasoline. Why can't people comprehend that under such circumstances as described for the cremation of the bodies in the Altmarkt would result in a fairly massive explosion? You have claimed "What's being described are bodies laid out on the ground, gasoline poured on their clothes and set alight". Why would that work, but not when the bodies are piled? The "redneck bonfire" was done for effect, to create a flash fire. If the petrol is given time to soak into the wood and clothing, it will not flash over like the video you have previously linked to. Just because rednecks cannot work out how to use petrol to light a fire, does not mean it is impossible to use it. I have shown you the photo that includes two piles of ashes next to a pyre. Irving reports "Walter Hahn, a veteran photographer who had spent his life capturing this โFlorence of the Elbeโ and the surrounding countryside on film, obtained an official pass signed by the gauleiter on February 25th, and took a score of photographs of the infernal scene in black and white and colour"
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 8, 2022 16:54:23 GMT
What can't you comprehend about gallons of gasoline poured over a huge pile of bodies would result in a massive explosion? I've posted the "Redneck bonfire" video numerous times. Haven't you watched it? A guy empties a five gallon can of gasoline over a pile of refuse and then sets a some debris alight and tosses it onto the pile of gasoline soaked refuse. Instant explosion. Why can't you understand the connection between the gasoline and the explosion? Why can't you understand that pouring gallons of gasoline over the pile of bodies would give the same result?
A body laid out on the ground with a small amount of gasoline used to set the clothes ablaze is feasible. Fumes don't have that much time to accumulate nor does the smaller amount of fuel generate such volumes of fumes. A pile of brush can be burned using a small amount of gasoline to start the fire. Throw the gas and then a match (or whatever) to set it alight. Have done it many times burning leaves, brush and other debris. Pour a larger quantity of gasoline over a pile of leaves and wait a few minutes and you get an explosive event even with only a half gallon or so of gasoline. I KNOW that from experience. Gasoline fumes are explosive. Why do you think that the head(s) of a gas engine are torqued to anywhere from 50-100 foot pounds?
Irving claiming that gallons of gasoline were poured over a huge pile of bodies and then set alight is full of more shit than a Christmas goose. Gasoline is like blasting powder. Use a little bit and you have a firecracker. Use a lot and you have a bomb. Why people can't comprehend that is beyond me.
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