Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 31, 2021 12:03:26 GMT
I like to find out what actually happened in the past. I find Holocaust denier/revisionist comments such as "the Jews just went where they went", or not giving a "rats arse" about what happened, as a response to what did happen to those people who had been registered and imprisoned by the Nazis, very frustrating. I find it very odd that there is a real lack of interest in searching for and gathering evidence to establish what did happen inside the AR camps and A-B Kremas, if it was not mass gassings.
The most interesting, for me, denier research, has been when the likes of Eric Hunt, Carlo Mattogno and Thomas Kues have tried to establish what did happen to at least some of the c2.5 million Jews sent to the AR camps and A-B Kremas 1941-1944. For those who do not know, their research has failed to establish what did happen. Hunt admitted he could not find any evidence of what happened to those supposedly not gassed. Kues found some hearsay evidence of Jews being moved into the Nazi occupied former Soviet east, and some evidence of transports to camps and ghettos there, but nothing about any resettlement. That was the last thing he is known to have written. Mattogno found evidence of transports of Jews to labour camps in Poland, which is obviously different from mass resettlement and merely adds to the existing evidence of a selection process for workers.
If denial/revisionism was correct, then in 1944-5, as the Allies liberated camps both east and west, then millions of Jews would have been liberated. Instead, the Soviets found mostly empty camps and the largest camp liberated in the west was Bergen-Belsen, with c60,000 prisoners, not all of whom were Jewish.
So, anyone got any evidence, from witnesses, documents or other contemporaneous source pertaining to the c2.5 million Jews in Nazi custody 1941-4 and what had happened to them, such that by 1945, only a few hundred thousand were liberated by the Allies.
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Post by Ulios on Dec 31, 2021 16:52:29 GMT
Seems most were scattered in the East, many perished in harsh conditions, some returned, some also were in constant transit due to work. There is also the evidence given of paper people that never existed.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 31, 2021 16:59:28 GMT
Seems most were scattered in the East, many perished in harsh conditions, some returned, some also were in constant transit due to work. There is also the evidence given of paper people that never existed. Please link to and quote evidence of mass transports back out of the AR camps in 1942-3 and the Nazis scattering those people in the east.
Please link to and quote the evidence of people not existing.
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Post by been_there on Dec 31, 2021 17:28:38 GMT
Maybe you should start by providing verifiable evidence of that claimed โcirca 2.5 million Jewsโ figure.
Yโknow, as a genuine Police investigator would do. ๐ค
As Police do NOT start a criminal investigation โ as far as I know โ until they are sure a crime has been committed. Er... but you knew that, right?
1. So first prove there are/were 2.5 million missing Jews.
2. Then provide conclusive evidence showing exactly where they went missing.
3. Then prove they were murdered there.
4. Letโs see any credible evidence of 2.5 million bodies still at those alleged murder scenes.
5. Letโs see any credible evidence of a murder weapon and process for that many people.
6. Letโs see any credible evidence of disposal of the bodies of 2.5 alleged murder victims.
Basically, please show your police investigation experience and prove to me using Police procedure how you could prove in a court of law that c2.5 million people were murdered in Aktion Reinhard and Auschwitz Birkenau camps.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 31, 2021 19:06:01 GMT
.....Maybe you should start by providing verifiable evidence of that claimed โcirca 2.5 million Jewsโ figure... The evidence that c2.5 million people were sent to the AR camps and A-B kremas has been posted on numerous occasions. It comes from multiple documents and witnesses. Start a thread on that evidence, if that is what you want to discuss.
Please stay on topic and show evidence as to what happened to the c2.5 million people historians say were gassed, between the end of 1941 and the liberation of the last camps in 1945. If you want to dispute they were even sent to the AR camps and A-B Kremas, in mass transports starting at the end of 1941 and finishing in autumn 1944, then show your evidence of that.
This thread is for denier/revisionists to produce contemporaneous evidence from documents, witnesses and any other evidential source, so we can discuss it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 13:51:35 GMT
Still no evidence to what actually happened.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 2, 2022 17:26:14 GMT
Nessie accuses the Germans of mass murder and then demands that revisionists prove that it didn't happen. The fact is that you haven't proven that mass murder occurred at the AR camps and at A-B. You offer nothing but disputed evidence. Murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and exterminationists haven't done that.
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 17:52:05 GMT
Nessie accuses the Germans of mass murder and then demands that revisionists prove that it didn't happen. ... Murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and exterminationists haven't done that. Yes. He is guilty of reversing the burden of proof. This has been explained to him numerous times. But instead of being honest and acknowledging it, he just steals that argument and dishonestly reverses it. Which shows he is not genuinely interested in discovering โwhat actually happenedโ. It is a pose he has adopted, one he has also stolen from those he regards as opposing him and his belief. As was explained here: โFourthly they then have to ask: โis this the evidence that SHOULD exist if the Jew genocide by mass-gassing hypothesis were true and accurate?โโ
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 18:23:10 GMT
Still no evidence to what actually happened. This apparently childish statement reminds me when I was observing a belligerent ignorant student at a High School. She was forced back into class by their parents and police, sat, slammed the books on the table and screamed at the teacher "here I am, teach me". Like before she had not the slightest intention of listening to her teachers, her parents or anyone, only to her internally driven selfishness. This whole genocide section of the forum is dedicated to discussing "what happened"; because none of us were there as much information as possible is sifted through, sorting the chaff from the wheat, a few kernels of wisdom amid much discursive chaff. It appears that some people in that past were intent on providing as much chaff as possible to obscure the realities of the places; while all dust clouds blow away, some dust settles, some firmly. People like Nessie can only see the dust and try and stir it up. If there is something beneath the dust he has not the slightest interest in destroying his world view. |
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Nessie
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Posts: 5,210
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:10:18 GMT
Nessie accuses the Germans of mass murder and then demands that revisionists prove that it didn't happen. The fact is that you haven't proven that mass murder occurred at the AR camps and at A-B. You offer nothing but disputed evidence. Murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and exterminationists haven't done that. In this thread, I ask what did happen and give you the opportunity to provide evidence of what did happen. This thread is not about your claims as to what did not happen. |
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Nessie
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๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,210
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:16:06 GMT
Nessie accuses the Germans of mass murder and then demands that revisionists prove that it didn't happen. ... Murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and exterminationists haven't done that. Yes. He is guilty of reversing the burden of proof. This has been explained to him numerous times. But instead of being honest and acknowledging it, he just steals that argument and dishonestly reverses it. Which shows he is not genuinely interested in discovering โwhat actually happenedโ. It is a pose he has adopted, one he has also stolen from those he regards as opposing him and his belief. As was explained here: โFourthly they then have to ask: โis this the evidence that SHOULD exist if the Jew genocide by mass-gassing hypothesis were true and accurate?โโ
It is not reversing the burden of proof to ask, what did happen? The gassings claim is ditched, and you can start from afresh, with a blank canvas.
You can now present evidence of what happened inside each of the AR camps at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and TII and inside the A-B Kremas at the times each was operating between the end of 1941 and autumn of 1944.
Using evidence from contemporaneous eyewitnesses, documents, physical items, photos, archaeology, forensics and circumstances pertaining to those places, you prove what happened. You have said elsewhere that present historians who have studied those places cannot be trusted, so over to you.
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Nessie
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Posts: 5,210
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:18:41 GMT
Still no evidence to what actually happened. This apparently childish statement reminds me when I was observing a belligerent ignorant student at a High School. She was forced back into class by their parents and police, sat, slammed the books on the table and screamed at the teacher "here I am, teach me". Like before she had not the slightest intention of listening to her teachers, her parents or anyone, only to her internally driven selfishness. This whole genocide section of the forum is dedicated to discussing "what happened"; because none of us were there as much information as possible is sifted through, sorting the chaff from the wheat, a few kernels of wisdom amid much discursive chaff. It appears that some people in that past were intent on providing as much chaff as possible to obscure the realities of the places; while all dust clouds blow away, some dust settles, some firmly. People like Nessie can only see the dust and try and stir it up. If there is something beneath the dust he has not the slightest interest in destroying his world view.
I was merely giving this thread another kickstart, to get you guys on the job of evidencing and proving what did happen. I was hoping for a flood of new evidence, such as eyewitnesses we have never discussed before, new documents etc. I am disappointed that so far, nothing....
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jan 3, 2022 11:55:22 GMT
Nessie wrote:
For a trained police investigator you have some strange notions about law and court procedures. You have accused the Germans of mass murder and presented your witnesses and shown your evidence. Your witnesses have been proven to be liars and your evidence either spurious or equivocal. It isn't the revisionists job to prove what happened. Debunking your claims is sufficient.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 3, 2022 14:18:46 GMT
Nessie wrote: For a trained police investigator you have some strange notions about law and court procedures. You have accused the Germans of mass murder and presented your witnesses and shown your evidence. Your witnesses have been proven to be liars and your evidence either spurious or equivocal. OK, so let us pretend you are the defence lawyer for the Nazis. You accuse each Jewish witness of being a liar, but you present no evidence to back up your claims. Instead, you argue a series of logical fallacies, such as because a witness did not describe a gas chamber that you think would not work, therefore the witness lied. You produce no documentary or other evidence to back up your claims. You then claim your Nazi clients have been coerced into lying, but they admit to the gassings and make no mention of being coerced. Do you think the Judge would find the Nazis not guilty of a crime they admit to and is corroborated by the other witnesses as well as documents and physical evidence? If historians or the police find that a claim about a certain event is false, they then go back to the start and reinvestigate to find out what did happen. Only revisionists think proving what did not happen is sufficient. If someone is accused of a crime and an investigation finds they have an alibi, the investigation restarts, to find out who was responsible. Only revisionists think otherwise. The reason why you dodge investigating what did happen, is because there is no evidence something else happened and that means you are wrong. At least Eric Hunt had the decency to admit he was wrong, when he realised there was no evidence to back up his beliefs. |
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Post by been_there on Jan 3, 2022 15:17:25 GMT
For a trained police investigator you have some strange notions about law and court procedures. You have accused the Germans of mass murder and presented your witnesses and shown your evidence. Your witnesses have been proven to be liars and your evidence either spurious or equivocal. ...You accuse each Jewish witness of being a liar, but you present no evidence to back up your claims. ...You produce no documentary or other evidence to back up your claims. You then claim your Nazi clients have been coerced into lying, but they admit to the gassings and make no mention of being coerced. If historians or the police find that a claim about a certain event is false, they then go back to the start and reinvestigate to find out what did happen. Only revisionists think proving what did not happen is sufficient. This reply is literally nonsense! There has been copious amounts of irrefutable evidence proving Jewish witnesses lied in crucial details regarding their claims to have witnessed mass-gassings, etc. And likewise is there copious amounts of compelling evidence proving that Axis personnel were tortured and coerced into making false โconfessionsโ. So... Again another reply showing the true-believer mindset that is prepared to โdenyโ reality in order to promote their โbeliefโ. If a police investigation of a reported murder and burial in a specific spot later finds no body there PLUS the alleged victim turns up alive and well, then OF COURSE the investigation is halted AND no-one is assigned the job of explaining who was killed and buried there. PLUS, PLUS, PLUS the ones lying would be charged with making false claims and wasting police time. This is so basic and obvious. And is therefore further proof also that this person is NOT in reality an ex-police-investigator. Plus it is NOT โonly revisionists who think proving what did not happen is sufficientโ.On the contrary. And that works the same in numerous practical and academic disciplines. If a thesis, premise, theory or claim is proven to be false, then that is enought for it to be accepted as false. It is not necessary to posit an alternative explanation to justify proving it false. This is the very bed-rock of the empirical paradigm: something that no โholocaustโ defender that I have ever come across understands. Which is perhaps not so surprising: they are after all approaching the subject as quasi-religious, faithful believers, not as objective, reasonable scientists, empiricists or historians. |
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