Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 11:09:57 GMT
If there are two possible outcomes and the first is impossible then the second is, by definition, what happened. There is evidence for both Treblinka and Sobibor that the Jews were transported to other destinations. There is evidence of a selection process and smaller transports left those camps, of people to work in labour camps elsewhere in Poland. That is not evidence of Sobibor, TII (or Belzec or Chelmno) being transit camps. That is evidence of the well known selection process for people arriving at Auschwitz and being separated into two lines;
That process and what happened to those people is evidenced. We know many of their names, as they were registered at the camps they were sent to work in. At Auschwitz that process also involved the famous tattooing of prisoners. There are witnesses, both Jewish and Nazi to the selection process and evidence of the train movements from camp to camp, as many workers were moved between various camps. The movement of those people left evidence from witnesses and documents. There is also the physical evidence of the camps themselves and where those people were accommodated. Majdanek was the second largest camp after A-B, with a maximum capacity of about 50,000 prisoners. Records from the camp show that between 1941 and 1944 when it was closed and then captured, it took in about 150,000 prisoners.
That leaves millions of people sent to the AR camps and A-B Kremas for whom there is no evidence. No documents, or witnesses or places to accommodate them. The evidence trail stops at the AR camps and Kremas. Either they left the camps or they were gassed. That is the only alternative. It is physically possible for the Nazis to have gassed those people. It is not physically possible for the Nazis to have hidden them away, without leaving any evidence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 11:10:56 GMT
You have claimed a false dilemma. I am pointing out that is wrong. There are ONLY two possible outcomes for the people sent to the places deniers deny had mass gassing chambers. Not at all I mentioned another camp, the directions given at the Malkinia loop. The transport directions were generalized for the most part. While a good number of people did arrive at this TII near the quarry there is no reason why they could not leave out the back door. The lack of physical evidence to anything else attests to this. I would not use the term "denier". People here are trying to determine the truth, not your truth. There is a difference in the order of a quantum leap. It is physically impossible for c860,000 people to have walked out of TII, without leaving any evidence of that happening. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 22, 2021 12:54:26 GMT
Nessie wrote:
It is impossible for ~850,000 people to have been murdered, cremated and buried at Treblinka without leaving any proof of that happening.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 14:22:37 GMT
Nessie wrote: It is impossible for ~850,000 people to have been murdered, cremated and buried at Treblinka without leaving any proof of that happening.
There is plenty of evidence it happened. That you have a series of excuses to dismiss that evidence, is why you think there is no proof. For all academics and anyone who understands evidencing and logic, that evidence proves mass gassings.
There is no evidence at all of the only alternative to gassings. You try to claim the occasional transports reported of people to go to other labour camps in Poland is evidence TII was a transit camp, but that is wrong. It is evidence of the selection process that was also evidenced to have happened at the other AR camps and A-B.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 22, 2021 15:28:30 GMT
Nessie wrote: It is impossible for ~850,000 people to have been murdered, cremated and buried at Treblinka without leaving any proof of that happening.
There is plenty of evidence it happened. That you have a series of excuses to dismiss that evidence, is why you think there is no proof. For all academics and anyone who understands evidencing and logic, that evidence proves mass gassings.
There is no evidence at all of the only alternative to gassings. You try to claim the occasional transports reported of people to go to other labour camps in Poland is evidence TII was a transit camp, but that is wrong. It is evidence of the selection process that was also evidenced to have happened at the other AR camps and A-B.
First you claim to have "evidence" and then complain that I won't accept it as proof of mass murder. IOW, you say that little boys ride tricycles and then demand that I accept that as proof that the little boy rode his tricycle to the moon. As far as me being the only person who doesn't accept your "evidencing" that's complete bullshit. Nick Kollerstrom and Art Butz are just two academics who don't accept your mindless claptrap as "proof" of the holyhoax.
You first admit that Jews did in fact leave Treblinka for other destinations and then declare that it isn't evidence of Jews leaving Treblinka for other destinations. I suppose that makes sense to you.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 16:14:09 GMT
There is plenty of evidence it happened. That you have a series of excuses to dismiss that evidence, is why you think there is no proof. For all academics and anyone who understands evidencing and logic, that evidence proves mass gassings.
There is no evidence at all of the only alternative to gassings. You try to claim the occasional transports reported of people to go to other labour camps in Poland is evidence TII was a transit camp, but that is wrong. It is evidence of the selection process that was also evidenced to have happened at the other AR camps and A-B.
First you claim to have "evidence" and then complain that I won't accept it as proof of mass murder. IOW, you say that little boys ride tricycles and then demand that I accept that as proof that the little boy rode his tricycle to the moon. False analogy. Your mantra of a boy cycling to the moon, applies to what is physically impossible, under all circumstances, to do. You accept that the Germans could build gas chambers, dig big pits and cremate on pyres, you just do not believe the witness descriptions of how each happened. Your disbelief does not make the witness claims about gassings, burials and pyres happening physically impossible. I was not saying it was just you, I said it was anyone who does not understand evidencing and logic, which includes a few academics, who have fallen for the Holocaust denier hoax. I have always pointed out that the evidence of Jews leaving TII is ONLY evidence of a selection process, whereby some were sent to work on labour camps in Poland. That makes sense, so you misrepresent what I said, because you cannot argue against my claim. The witness you have used the most, Helen Schwartz, was clear that she was picked along with other girls to go to a labour camp in Poland. You then claim she is not evidence of selections. That only makes sense to you! |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 22, 2021 17:30:27 GMT
Nessie wrote:
The analogy is you trying to connect separate events. A post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Whether it's little boys on trikes or a pile of smouldering cadavers equating to ~850,000 Jews being cremated is irrelevant. It remains a fallacy and "evidences" or proves nothing.
Uh-huh, you mean anyone who doesn't buy the lies and fantasies of holyhoaxers.
Jews leaving Treblinka is evidence of Jews leaving Treblinka. You claim that was limited but have no way of proving that.
By the way, Helen Schwartz is the witness YOU use the most to question whether she was actually in Treblinka.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 17:55:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: The analogy is you trying to connect separate events. A post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Whether it's little boys on trikes or a pile of smouldering cadavers equating to ~850,000 Jews being cremated is irrelevant. It remains a fallacy and "evidences" or proves nothing. You are trying to justify your mantra, where you apply it to what is physically possible, whilst ignoring you claim something that is physically impossible. I can evidence and prove my beliefs. You cannot. The circumstances under which people left TII is important. Selections to go to labour camps in Poland is not evidence TII was a transit camp sending hundreds of thousands east. The documentary and witness evidence of the majority of trains leaving empty, is evidence to prove transports of people back out of the camp was limited. Who are your witnesses to TII being a transit camp? |
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Post by ๐๐๐ฎ๐ฒ๐๐ป๐ผ๐ฑ๐ฟ๐ฟ on Dec 22, 2021 18:01:09 GMT
I have always pointed out that the evidence of Jews leaving TII is ONLY evidence of a selection process, whereby some were sent to work on labour camps in Poland. That makes sense, so you misrepresent what I said, because you cannot argue against my claim. The witness you have used the most, Helen Schwartz, was clear that she was picked along with other girls to go to a labour camp in Poland. You then claim she is not evidence of selections. That only makes sense to you! Jews leaving Treblinka is evidence of Jews leaving Treblinka. You claim that was limited but have no way of proving that. By the way, Helen Schwartz is the witness YOU use the most to question whether she was actually in Treblinka. It seems that both of our members have gone off track, discussing Treblinka and Helen Schwartz. This thread is on the extreme position people like the Soviets took due to their Communist ideology. Even their own captured soldiers during the war were deemed compromised and afterwards distrusted enough for many to be executed. Wives of husbands whose ideology was supect were taken around the back and shot if they went to the secret police head quarters. This defines the Soviet mindset, that they know "the truth" and by default every other position is corrupt, to be eliminated. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 19:47:01 GMT
From the OP "Those who claim that discussing the Holocaust is antisemitic is creating the same false polarization, the same false dilemma."
For TII not to have gas chambers, then every single witness to TII, from the disputed evidence of Helen Schwartz to Yankel Wiernik to Erich Fuchs, is a liar. There is no witness to TII who states that he or she was inside at something else happened other than mass gassings.
That plays to the anti-Semitic tropes of Jews as dishonest and powerfully manipulative.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 22, 2021 19:58:56 GMT
That plays to the anti-Semitic tropes of Jews as dishonest and powerfully manipulative. The fact that Wiernik and the other militia were partisan seems to have little bearing; in fact this was the cause of the black propaganda. Whether or not they were jewish is irrelevant except they would have to be to get into the camp as prisoners. Most of the jews were shot because they were involved in partisan activities or thought to be; whole villages were decimated as a result. Rightfully or wrongly they were considered dangerous terrorists to be eliminated. The Bolshevik Jews were very dishonest, murderous and powerfully manipulative which is why steps were taken for their immediate removal from the planet. |
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