Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Dec 16, 2021 2:04:06 GMT
With us or against us (the false dilemma) Jesus quote similar utterance with: Lenin used this as a pretext for joining his Communist party: Hilary Clinton said: link
Those who claim that discussing the Holocaust is antisemitic is creating the same false polarization, the same false dilemma. While it is OK to publicly support the notions of burning blood, self cremating corpses and children thrown into the fire alive by axis powers, it is a grave sin and antisemitic to question those claims, even if profoundly untrue. This is how the term "denier" originated; nothing of the Holocaust must be questioned. "Either you love us or you hate us" is the dichotomy in their minds; it is this that is being promulgated. Fingers are pointed. There is attempts at naming and shaming. Of course the truth is one could be completely indifferent; even if one points out obvious mistakes with compelling evidence the fingers are still pointed with scorn. It is indeed a philosophy based on profound arrogance and ignorance.. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 20, 2021 18:20:38 GMT
.... Those who claim that discussing the Holocaust is antisemitic is creating the same false polarization, the same false dilemma. Discussing the Holocaust is not anti-Semitic. Claiming that every single Jew who worked at an AR camp or inside an A-B Krema is a liar and that the Nazis who worked there were coerced into lying about gassings, is anti-Semitic. It plays to the tropes of Jews are liars and manipulative. It is acceptable to check claims to see what is evidenced to have happened and what is based on hearsay and rumour. The use of the term "denier" in relation to those who deny certain parts of the Holocaust narrative happened, is self-explanatory. Someone why denies that there were mass gassings has become known as a denier. The reason why "Holocaust deniers" are treated with scorn by the academic world, is because deniers use a methodology that is based on arguments using logical fallacies and not evidence. It is perfectly reasonable to question the evidence, so long as a credible, reliable, evidenced based methodology is used. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 20, 2021 19:34:24 GMT
Oh it is just the mass gassings that makes someone a denier. Of course in the mind of the poster Nessie, even questioning the validity of the gassing claims is "sin". I used to think denying the Holocaust made someone a denier, which is why they are Holocaust Deniers. Now the term has changed to "gassing deniers". Second part is off topic mantra dribble. This poster can do better than this. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 20, 2021 19:41:27 GMT
Oh it is just the mass gassings that makes someone a denier. Yes. People who deny the mass gassings, are commonly known as Holocaust deniers. How the validity is questioned, determines if it is a "sin" or not. Genuine historical research, based on contemporaneous evidence from witnesses, documents etc is acceptable. Questioning what happened based on a series of illogical arguments is not acceptable. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 20, 2021 20:09:44 GMT
People who deny the mass gassings, are commonly known as Holocaust deniers. Really lets see what others say: Some of those "established facts" are established fiction. No one can be on the side line; either one accepts the brief or one does not. This is a false dichotomy. More off topic ๐คค |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 20, 2021 20:18:22 GMT
People who deny the mass gassings, are commonly known as Holocaust deniers. Really lets see what others say: Some of those "established facts" are established fiction. No one can be on the side line; either one accepts the brief or one does not. This is a false dichotomy. More off topic ๐คค It is not a false dichotomy or dilemma to say that there were either mass gassings at the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas, or there were not. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 20, 2021 21:23:17 GMT
It is not a false dichotomy or dilemma to say that there were either mass gassings at the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas, or there were not. It is because unless someone is totally unaware of the alleged events, the saying "with us or against us" stands. More likely to be mass shootings, hangings, beheadings, drownings than gassing. A genocide just involves killing, not gassing; only the holocaust insists on gassing. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 20, 2021 21:53:30 GMT
Nessie claims that anyone who claims that the Jew alleged eyewitnesses are lying is anti-semitic. In that case, name and quote a Jew eyewitness to the alleged atrocities at Treblinka that doesn't require your weak suck excuses such as, "he's exaggerating" or, "he's engaging in hyperbole" or "he's misestimating".
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 21, 2021 8:47:41 GMT
It is not a false dichotomy or dilemma to say that there were either mass gassings at the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas, or there were not. It is because unless someone is totally unaware of the alleged events, the saying "with us or against us" stands. More likely to be mass shootings, hangings, beheadings, drownings than gassing. A genocide just involves killing, not gassing; only the holocaust insists on gassing. If people were not gassed at the AR camps, Chelmno or in the A-B Kremas, then the ONLY alternative is that they left those places on mass transports. There is no false dilemma, there are only two options; gassed, or left the camp. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 21, 2021 8:49:13 GMT
Nessie claims that anyone who claims that the Jew alleged eyewitnesses are lying is anti-semitic. In that case, name and quote a Jew eyewitness to the alleged atrocities at Treblinka that doesn't require your weak suck excuses such as, "he's exaggerating" or, "he's engaging in hyperbole" or "he's misestimating". Your claim is that everyone who went to TII is a liar, which means you claim c860,000 Jews are all liars and the Nazis who worked there also lied. You are appealing to the anti-Semitic tropes of Jews as liars and manipulative. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 21, 2021 8:57:24 GMT
If people were not gassed at the AR camps, Chelmno or in the A-B Kremas, then the ONLY alternative is that they left those places on mass transports. There is no false dilemma, there are only two options; gassed, or left the camp. Please stop using this in many threads, off topic, as though much has not been answered. You are basing everything on assumptions. There is much unknown, some being slowly unravelled, work in progress; much, people like yourself refuse to acknowledge. The Soviets also used the policy, with or against; post war until 1953 the Soviets murdered 15,613,000 Victims; this is where your Jews are. They had a choice: stay and support Soviet Bolshevism or die. Lager III in the AR camps were the exit points. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 21, 2021 9:03:58 GMT
If people were not gassed at the AR camps, Chelmno or in the A-B Kremas, then the ONLY alternative is that they left those places on mass transports. There is no false dilemma, there are only two options; gassed, or left the camp. Please stop using this in many threads, off topic, as though much has not been answered. You are basing everything on assumptions. There is much unknown, some being slowly unravelled, work in progress; much, people like yourself refuse to acknowledge. The Soviets also used the policy, with or against; post war until 1953 the Soviets murdered 15,613,000 Victims; this is where your Jews are. They had a choice: stay and support Soviet Bolshevism or die. Lager III in the AR camps were the exit points. You have claimed a false dilemma. I am pointing out that is wrong. There are ONLY two possible outcomes for the people sent to the places deniers deny had mass gassing chambers. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 21, 2021 9:17:22 GMT
If there are two possible outcomes and the first is impossible then the second is, by definition, what happened. There is evidence for both Treblinka and Sobibor that the Jews were transported to other destinations.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 21, 2021 9:19:28 GMT
You have claimed a false dilemma. I am pointing out that is wrong. There are ONLY two possible outcomes for the people sent to the places deniers deny had mass gassing chambers. Not at all I mentioned another camp, the directions given at the Malkinia loop. The transport directions were generalized for the most part. While a good number of people did arrive at this TII near the quarry there is no reason why they could not leave out the back door. The lack of physical evidence to anything else attests to this. I would not use the term "denier". People here are trying to determine the truth, not your truth. There is a difference in the order of a quantum leap. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 21, 2021 9:21:36 GMT
If there are two possible outcomes and the first is impossible then the second is, by definition, what happened. There is evidence for both Treblinka and Sobibor that the Jews were transported to other destinations. In Sobibor most of the witnesses thought their loved ones died because they were separated. They left along with 80 others to some other camp. No doubt the others did as well. There are reports of people arriving and leaving on horse and cart. |
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