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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 15, 2021 4:12:00 GMT
Gases are one of the three states of matter, the other two being solid and liquid. They consist of atoms and molecules. The earths atmosphere is roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% argon with 0.1% being other gases.
Oxygen is essential for life in most living organisms, so its depletion is life threatening. Carbon dioxide (CO2) makes up 0.04% of the air; being heavier than air it can displace oxygen and become life threatening. Places such as breweries which produce vast quantities of Carbon Dioxide (part of fermentation) have become deadly places for workers.
Volcanoes are a source of lethal gases, including carbon dioxide.
At Lake Nyos in Northwest Cameroon has huge amounts of carbon dioxide dissolved in its waters. On Aug. 21, 1986, something in the lake went off:
A close cousin of carbon dioxide is carbon monoxide (CO) which if inhaled does not kill by asphyxiation through oxygen displacement but by reacting with the chemical in the blood that transports oxygen around the body. This lethal gas stops oxygen from being carried around the body of mammals.
There are many deaths per year from accidental CO poisoning.
It is claimed by some Holocaust witnesses that CO was the agent of death in specially designed gas chambers in various "death camps".
The gas is easily made chemically, pure and lethal by the following chemical reaction. Every post primary school child can do this.
carbon (charcoal) + oxygen โ carbon monoxide
This is burning wood in a limited supply of air.
or water and steam
H2O + C โ H2 + CO (ฮH = +131 kJ/mol)
This is an industrial cheap method of making the gas.
The Germans were the masters of chemical engineering, but they decided to use the highly inefficient method of wasting gasoline
in a combustion motor to produce a limited supply of CO which was directed to the gas chambers.
Petrol or gasoline is basically Octane (C8H18), a hydrocarbon.
A similar equation can be shown using Propane C3H8, also a hydrocarbon. Normally as the equation below shows CO2 is a product of combustion as well as 4 molecules of water.
C3H8 + 5O2 โ 3CO2 + 4H2O
If however, the fuel is increased or the oxygen is reduced to create a "rich" fuel to air ratio, some deadly CO is produced.
2C3H8 + 7O2 โ 6CO + 8H2O
This is a highly inefficient way to produce CO but nevertheless it is alleged the Germans used this method to gas over a million people.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 15, 2021 5:55:19 GMT
2C 3H 8 + 7O 2 โ 6CO + 8H 2O in the above equation produces twice the amount of carbon monoxide than the fuel needed. It also produces 4 times the amount of water as steam. This might account for the steam chamber claims if true. A vehicle with the above fuel to oxygen ratio would probably not run, due to insufficient oxygen. Increasing the oxygen lightly would give a mixture of water, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. If propane was used as a fuel then the following balanced equation would be the most likely, the products changing slightly as the fuel to air ratio changes. 3C 3H 8 + 14O 2 โ 7CO 2 + 2CO + 12H 2O To every 3 parts of fuel there is a corresponding production of 2 parts of carbon monoxide. This is a highly inefficient method of making CO. 132 grams of fuel burned produces 56 grams of carbon monoxide (2.3:1) With this previously mentioned method: H 2O + C โ H 2 + CO 12 gram of fuel produces 28 gram of CO, which is more than double. The school boy method carbon (charcoal) + oxygen โ carbon monoxide or C + 0.5O 2 โ CO is also highly efficient with 12 g of fuel producing 26 gram of deadly CO. I am not saying it did not happen but I am at odds to wonder why the Germans who are short of fuel in a war of annihilation would waste a valuable resource on a highly inefficient system. 6,400 ppm (0.64%), (6.4โฐ) is deadly within 20 mins link. It can easily be calculated the amount of this gas is needed to reach that concentration in any room space (gas chamber) and how much fuel is needed to achieve this. The readers can do this themselves. The amount of fuel to produce enough CO to gas over a million people is huge, probably enough to hinder the war effort. One can decide for themselves why the Germans would have used this method. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 15, 2021 7:05:01 GMT
Octane and petrol are both gasoline. Octane makes up a good proportion of modern petrol. Octane is the molecule C8H18 a hydrocarbon.
It can be written as CH3(CH2)6CH3 as the structural formula. In the past it used to be mixed with heptane for fuel as iso-octane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane).
The combustion of octane is as follows:
C8H18 + 12.5O2 โ 8CO2 + 9H2O
octane + oxygen โ carbon dioxide + water
with depleted air some CO is produced.
2C8H18 + 24O2 โ 14CO2 + 2CO + 18H2O
So 228g of octane gasoline would produce 56 gram of carbon monoxide, a ratio of 4:1
It can be seen in this equation that Octane which is 114 gmol-1 produces a mere 28 gmol-1 of carbon monoxide.
This would be the most inefficient way to make the gas imaginable.
Some could say the people who invented rockets that entered space, jet fighters and colored photography decided to let the monkeys out of the zoo to create this CO technology for mass gassing. People can decide for themselves.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 15, 2021 8:29:05 GMT
C'mon, Venator. Do the calculations for us. Having to cudgel my old brain into trying to revive long forgotten math skills is a PITA. How many gallons (or liters) of gasoline would it take to achieve a 6,400 ppm lethal dose for ~850,000 people? The original gas chambers were claimed to have been 5X5X2 meters and there were 3 of them. The new gas chambers were 7X7X1.9 meters and there were 10 of them. For simplicity assume that 13 chambers were used all of the time. Do it for the sake of your elders.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Dec 15, 2021 9:12:56 GMT
C'mon, Venator. Do the calculations for us. Having to cudgel my old brain into trying to revive long forgotten math skills is a PITA. How many gallons (or liters) of gasoline would it take to achieve a 6,400 ppm lethal dose for ~850,000 people? The original gas chambers were claimed to have been 5X5X2 meters and there were 3 of them. The new gas chambers were 7X7X1.9 meters and there were 10 of them. For simplicity assume that 13 chambers were used all of the time. Do it for the sake of your elders. I worked it out as 0.8 litres of fuel for each gas chamber leaving the head-space of 25 cubic metres. So the 3 gas chambers would take 2.4 litres of fuel assuming there is no leakage. Not sure if the perfect CO gas chamber exists. The larger chambers would take 1 litre so 13 litres. 450 per gas chamber according to Wiernik. 450 people per litre of fuel. 850, 000 people is 1889 litres or 1.5 tonne of gasoline. Venator can check this out later but I think it is right. In to days money each litre is $1.9 US per litre for Europe. So the gas to gas would cost the Germans $3589 to perform this at 100% efficiency in Treblinka. If they used charcoal it would have cost nothing. |
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 15, 2021 10:11:06 GMT
That works out to 500 (499.7) gallons of gas. According to wiki that Soviet M-5 engine got about 1.26 miles per gallon or around 30-35 gallons per hour. That's in a 11.5 ton tank. How much gas would a stationary M-5 burn idling at 1,800 RPM? Half or about 15-17 gallons/hour? At 20 minutes run time per gassing session and 4 gassing sessions per day then we have 80 minutes or 1.3 hours of run time per day. That equals 19.5 gallons per day minimum.
We can halve that figure and we still have a serious divergence. The discrepancy seems to lie in the amount of time that Wiernik claimed for the engine to run to complete a gassing.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Dec 15, 2021 10:37:52 GMT
That works out to 500 (499.7) gallons of gas. According to wiki that Soviet M-5 engine got about 1.26 miles per gallon or around 30-35 gallons per hour. That's in a 11.5 ton tank. How much gas would a stationary M-5 burn idling at 1,800 RPM? Half or about 15-17 gallons/hour? At 20 minutes run time per gassing session and 4 gassing sessions per day then we have 80 minutes or 1.3 hours of run time per day. That equals 19.5 gallons per day minimum. We can halve that figure and we still have a serious divergence. The discrepancy seems to lie in the amount of time that Wiernik claimed for the engine to run to complete a gassing. If real engineers were doing the gassing, they would operate at about 80% efficiency of the calculated stoichiometry. It appears that buffoons did the calculations for gassing if the motor is being run for 20 mins a "session"; there is no need for that once the ambient CO concentration is reached; this should happen when approx 1.2 litres of gasoline is used. If Werner von Braun did the same calculations for his V2 rocket they would all still be sitting on the launch pad. If this happened these are just buffoons who think they can just rev an engine to put exhaust gases in; yet on the other hand there is detail of technical engineering such as hermetic seals. Simply the stories and the calculations do not gel. A better method of execution would be to wack the victims on the head with a sledge hammer; it is about the same level of competence. |
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 15, 2021 11:03:32 GMT
I don't think that any of the alleged witnesses performed any calculations whatsoever. They just pulled some numbers out of their arse because they sounded good to them.
PS. At Belzec it's claimed that the eeevul Narzis did whack the Jews with a hammer i.e. the pedal powered brain bashing machine.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Dec 15, 2021 11:23:30 GMT
I don't think that any of the alleged witnesses performed any calculations whatsoever. They just pulled some numbers out of their arse because they sounded good to them.
PS. At Belzec it's claimed that the eeevul Narzis did whack the Jews with a hammer i.e. the pedal powered brain bashing machine.
If what the witnesses said is true, there was certainly no chemical engineer near the place, just some dummkopf starting an engine hoping for the best results. As you said about 20 US gals would be needed for each gassing (76 litres). The amount of people stuffed in would be an exaggeration so opt for 200. This would be 323 thousand litres or 258 thousand tonne. People can decide if this is feasible. |
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 18, 2021 7:09:46 GMT
Some interesting quotes from "A Year in Treblinka" by Yankel Wiernik.
So, we have about 7-8 gassing sessions per day and a total run time for the engine of 175-200 minutes or 2 hours 55 minutes to 3 hours 20 minutes. That 27 liter engine would easily burn at least 10 gallons of fuel per hour, more likely close to twice that. According to Wiernik the Germans would consume at least 30 gallons of fuel per day to kill the Jews. That would be 180 gallons per week and if the eeevul Narzis murdered Jews for a total of 6 months out of the year that Treblinka was open then 4,680 gallons of fuel were burned.
Gasoline was supposedly used at Sobibor so a somewhat lesser amount for that installation but still not insignificant. We are now approaching a minimum of 7,500 gallons or 28,350 liters of fuel to generate the CO to kill Jews. How likely is that when the Germans had literally hundreds of thousands of producer gas generators at their disposal?
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 18, 2021 8:28:19 GMT
It begs the question of what the camp was for if people were not being exterminated during the lax period. It seems like 13, 500 US gals were used in the whole time the camp was open for gassing.
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 18, 2021 10:24:31 GMT
It begs the question of what the camp was for if people were not being exterminated during the lax period. It seems like 13, 500 US gals were used in the whole time the camp was open for gassing. Was that fuel for the camp generator? I was under the impression that the generator was a diesel. Please clarify. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 18, 2021 18:41:27 GMT
Was that fuel for the camp generator? I was under the impression that the generator was a diesel. Please clarify. Either way the Germans were running out of fuel, desperately. They had to rely on synthetic fuel production from coal and methane. Most of the manufacter of synthetic fuel appears to be in Poland, which the allies targetted for bombing. The Germans started to build undergound plants but were never completed it seems. However, despite the critical fuel shortages at the AR camps they decided to forget the war effort and waste thousands of gallons of precious fuel to gas people. Considering they could have used highly effective CO plants on site to kill effectively they decided to waste it. If necessary they could have used a litre of fuel per gas chamber with the right burning equipment. Instead they decide to rev the hell out of some old dunga motor for 20 mins wasting it. In Poland they were using complex chemical reactions to make synthetic fuel (and food), except in some parts of Poland where the most useless form of gassing people was actuated. Dumb and dumberer. |
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 18, 2021 19:35:29 GMT
Re the German fuel shortage. I once read that a mechanic in the Luftwaffe was court martialed for spilling a single liter of fuel. The story may be apocryphal and in any event I don't have a link to it. It does, however, point up the acute fuel shortage of the Germans during the war.
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Post by blake121666 on Dec 18, 2021 21:05:02 GMT
Some interesting quotes from "A Year in Treblinka" by Yankel Wiernik. So, we have about 7-8 gassing sessions per day and a total run time for the engine of 175-200 minutes or 2 hours 55 minutes to 3 hours 20 minutes. That 27 liter engine would easily burn at least 10 gallons of fuel per hour, more likely close to twice that. According to Wiernik the Germans would consume at least 30 gallons of fuel per day to kill the Jews. That would be 180 gallons per week and if the eeevul Narzis murdered Jews for a total of 6 months out of the year that Treblinka was open then 4,680 gallons of fuel were burned. Gasoline was supposedly used at Sobibor so a somewhat lesser amount for that installation but still not insignificant. We are now approaching a minimum of 7,500 gallons or 28,350 liters of fuel to generate the CO to kill Jews. How likely is that when the Germans had literally hundreds of thousands of producer gas generators at their disposal? After the construction of the 10-room gas chamber building, gassings of 3000 at a time were done. According to Wikipedia's Treblinka entry for the gas chambers, up to 15,000 per day were gassed. That link is saying that the new chambers had 2 engines supplying the gas to these chambers. There's no reason to assume any 27-liter engine as you do. But anyway, 3,000 per gassing and let's just use 900,000 gassed altogether for ease of calculation. Then we're talking about 300 gassings total. Assuming 20 minutes from 2 engines for each gassing gives (300 * 20 minutes * 2 engines = 12,000 engine-minutes) - or 200 hours total. Using your very unreasonable estimate of 30 gallons per hour (an order of magnitude less would be more reasonable - say 2 or 3 gallons) gives 6,000 gallons of gasoline. Or, if one is more reasonable with the fuel usage estimate, about 600 gallons - about the size of a homeowner's tank for a backup generator. Whoop-dee-doo. They used a handful of engines over 3 sites for a small percentage of the day to gas people. Boy, what stress to their fuel requirements for millions of engines in their war machine!  What a brilliant line of reasoning! They couldn't run a few engines a few times per day at a few sites, think of the GASOLINE USED!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!1111 You ironically show the opposite of what you think you're showing. Even your largest estimates don't add up to anything significant. And yet you think otherwise. |
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What a brilliant line of reasoning! They couldn't run a few engines a few times per day at a few sites, think of the GASOLINE USED!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!1111