Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 10, 2021 13:42:17 GMT
Nessie wrote: I see no such link. Post it again. Lukaszkiewcz asked Rajchman the location of a mass grave. Rajchman said, "Right here" pointing to the ground. Lukaszkiewcz's crew dug like gophers and found no sign of a mass grave. Explain that. Then show a sample of laboratory tested human cremains from any time period. Show a GPR map of at least one mass grave. Right, like any of that is going to happen. I posted the link above in this post
The link is below
How are you unable to see it? It shows up as blue text for me. You reference this quote;
"The excavations began at the location described by the witness Rajzman on November 6, where the so-called 'camp hospital' had stood and where, according to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist. Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location - two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater - the digging was begun in this crater. In the course of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian, German, Austrian, and Czech coins as well as broken pieces of various kinds of containers were discovered. At the end of the work, at approximately 3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we encountered a layer which had not been reached previously. There were no human remains found."
Clearly what happened was that two years later, at a site that was different from when Rajzman had been there, he was wrong about the precise location of the Lazarete graves. The report goes on to say that the next day they dug where they believed the gas chambers were located, but found no trace of a building. Such is the problem with people trying to estimate where buildings were located, when faced with a large area that is nothing like what they saw previously.
The survey found plenty of areas full of cremated and larger human remains, for example
"The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters - its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains - was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[[208]] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here."
You know that there is no evidence cremains were sent from TII for lab testing. You also know that cremains were sent from Sobibor for lab testing and they came back as human.
The GPR images are in this report;
Figure 4.10 shows the area around the memorial that was GPR surveyed, resulting in the mapped ground disturbances shown, which along with teh resistance survey results are detailed in Appendices 4.3.3 to 4.3.6. There are numerous images from both GPR and electrical resistance shown throughout the reports, for example "Figure 4.32. GPR time slices of feature G44 (shown in red) identified at Treblinka II in
the area of the former Death Camp"
They are not the neat rectilinear shapes you want to see, which is explained by all of the digging that happened after the original mass graves were dug, to get the bodies out, when mixing cremains back into the ground, the digging by excavators in 1943 shown in the Kurt Franz photos, the grave robbing that started in 1944 and the memorialisation in the mid 1960s. The below BBC report reproduces the areas of disturbed ground found around the memorial, that are in the area of the camp where all the witnesses say the main mass graves were located. The memorial covers most of that part of the camp.
It also identifies pits in the hospital/Lazaret part of the camp, which Rajzman indicated to Lukaszkiewcz, but they did not find. You only need to be foot out to find nothing.
You have been told all of this before. You are just repeating yourself, but since the information is on the old forum, I have reproduced it here. Stop pretending you have not been shown any evidence. Stop trying to fool yourself there is a lack of evidence.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 10, 2021 14:36:18 GMT
Nessie posts quotes from the Soviet army/Polish officials investigation of Treblinka and attributes quotes from that report to Lukaszkiewicz. Here is what was stated in Lukaszkiewicz's report.
Lukaszkiewcz wrote that mass graves at Treblinka no longer existed. So, am I taking his statement "too literally"?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 10, 2021 16:20:41 GMT
.... Lukaszkiewcz wrote that mass graves at Treblinka no longer existed. So, am I taking his statement "too literally"? You suggest that means he found no traces at all and you are ignoring that because of Nazi exhumations and the grave robbing, there were no neatly outlined mass graves containing lots of bodies to find. You are also ignoring that what he found corresponds with what the witnesses said happened about the exhumations, cremations and cover up. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 10, 2021 18:56:10 GMT
.... Lukaszkiewcz wrote that mass graves at Treblinka no longer existed. So, am I taking his statement "too literally"? You suggest that means he found no traces at all and you are ignoring that because of Nazi exhumations and the grave robbing, there were no neatly outlined mass graves containing lots of bodies to find. You are also ignoring that what he found corresponds with what the witnesses said happened about the exhumations, cremations and cover up. The witnesses said that there were graves from 10-12 meters deep, 25-30 meters wide and 50 meters long. Wiernik said there were five such graves and Rajchman claimed that there were seven such graves with four larger graves. One of the larger graves was capable of containing 250,000 cadavers. You are mindlessly claiming that all such excavations disappeared from Nazi exhumations and grave robbers. Got any other completely idiotic ideas for what happened to the mass graves? |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 10, 2021 19:40:03 GMT
You suggest that means he found no traces at all and you are ignoring that because of Nazi exhumations and the grave robbing, there were no neatly outlined mass graves containing lots of bodies to find. You are also ignoring that what he found corresponds with what the witnesses said happened about the exhumations, cremations and cover up. The witnesses said that there were graves from 10-12 meters deep, 25-30 meters wide and 50 meters long. Wiernik said there were five such graves and Rajchman claimed that there were seven such graves with four larger graves. One of the larger graves was capable of containing 250,000 cadavers. You are mindlessly claiming that all such excavations disappeared from Nazi exhumations and grave robbers. Got any other completely idiotic ideas for what happened to the mass graves? The archaeological evidence is that the graves were not as witnesses estimated.
Please quote Wiernik and Rajchman's claims about how many mass graves there were.
I am not claiming the graves disappeared. I am claiming their original shape was dramatically changed due to exhumations, the cover up, grave robbing and the memorialisation of the camp.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 10, 2021 20:33:52 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Wiernik and Rajchman made their claims for graves in their books. Wiernik said five graves, Rajchman said eleven. If you want to see the quotes go look it up in their effing books.
What reason could the Germans have had for increasing the size of the graves while supposedly exhuming bodies? You've never answered how the graves were dug other than by your mystery machine. What was this mystery machine and how did it operate?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 10, 2021 20:42:56 GMT
Nessie wrote: Wiernik and Rajchman made their claims for graves in their books. Wiernik said five graves, Rajchman said eleven. If you want to see the quotes go look it up in their effing books. I have and cannot find the claims you make. You recently demanded I post a link to quotes, despite me already having done so, and I obliged with posting that link 3 times in total. So, off you go and produce the links, or accept your claim is dismissed. You are not a reliable source of information, so your claim they said different numbers of graves needs evidencing with links to and the witnesses quotes. I suspect that digging in to get at the bodies did not have as significant effect on the graves, as the cover up, grave robbing and memorialisation. Each act does explain why there are no neat rectangular outlines found with the geophysical survey of the camp. I have answered that question on multiple occasions. Excavators of an unknown make and type, were used to dig the original graves. Stop pretending that there was no excavation equipment in the 1940s, capable of digging large pits, many meters deep, long and wide. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 10, 2021 22:22:47 GMT
If you don't like what Wiernik and Rajchman said about the size and number of graves then tough tittie for you.
Right, the grave robbers excavated to a depth of 30-40 feet with hand tools. That's just soooooo believable.
Uh-huh, your magical mystery machine that magically appeared and disappeared from Treblinka. What could be more believable than that?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 11, 2021 16:33:18 GMT
If you don't like what Wiernik and Rajchman said about the size and number of graves then tough tittie for you. Right, the grave robbers excavated to a depth of 30-40 feet with hand tools. That's just soooooo believable. Uh-huh, your magical mystery machine that magically appeared and disappeared from Treblinka. What could be more believable than that? Your assumption they were estimating the correct grave size is wrong.
There were reports of explosives used at the camp by grave robbers and craters were found.
Multiple witnesses speak to excavators at TII, which was next to a quarry. Quite why you think the Nazis moving excavators is magical, is a mystery.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 12, 2021 17:32:44 GMT
There were reports of explosives used at the camp by grave robbers and craters were found. It was used as an artillery range. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 12, 2021 17:55:27 GMT
Yes! An excellent summarisation of this personโs approach. It is also pretty much sums up the approach that all the other H-believers and defenders employ: STEP 1: First believe. STEP 2: Then select the โfactsโ and โevidenceโ to fit the belief. STEP 3: Then filter out any awareness of the numerous contradictions, physical impossibilities, and conflicting evidence, etc., that could disturb the belief. STEP 4: Finally protect the belief with a pre-emptive attack on any dissenters or doubters of the belief, using threat of ad hominem smears, ostracisation, career-destruction, prison time and/or physical violence. This following reply confirms the irrational, belief-driven modus operandi explained above. Viz. the person starts from a position of unassailable belief in the infallible nature of the H narrative. Then all โevidenceโ is either accepted, rejected or twisted to fit that belief. This faithful โbelieverโ was asked this: Here is the reply: This is illogical, religious type of thinking. He believes something happened, so even if he canโt explain how it happened, he canโt even consider the possibility that maybe it didnโt happen. It is logical to believe mass graves were dug, when multiple witnesses state mass graves were dug and the archaeological and geophysical evidence finds large areas of disturbed ground, where the witnesses say the mass graves were dug.
The reason why the archaeological finds do not match the witness claims of rectangular graves, so meters long, wide and deep is also logically and evidentially explained. There is evidence the Nazis did as much as they could to hide the original mass graves, by exhuming bodies, cremating them and reburying them, not necessarily in the original mass graves, as they buried rubbish and demolished buildings and buried them as well in 1943. Then the sites were subjected to sustained grave robbing, lover the next 20 or so years, and including the use of explosives. That mixed up the ground even more. Then, to stop the grave robbing, in the 1960s, the sites were memorialised, which meant gathering up any exposed remains, and reburying them and then building memorials, the biggest of which was at TII, to cover as much of the grave area as possible.
The modern day archaeological digs that started in the late 1990s at Belzec, and then in the 2010s at Sobibor and TII, found, around the memorials, large areas of mostly ill-defined disturbed ground, consistent with all of the disturbances going back to 1943. The exception is Chelmno, where the forest burial site, was left, post war, largely undisturbed, with little grave robbing and a small memorial, and the areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains, are pretty much as the original graves were.
It is perfectly reasonable to accept the evidence of the use of excavators to dig mass graves, without knowing the make, model and type of those excavators. It is an illogical argument to claim that since the make, model and type is unknown, therefore those excavators did not exist and are magical.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 12, 2021 17:57:56 GMT
There were reports of explosives used at the camp by grave robbers and craters were found. It was used as an artillery range. The use of explosives is evidenced by the Polish 1945 report finding of craters, the post war photos of the site and the later day geophysical survey. No wonder nice neatly outlined rectangular mass graves were not found. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 12, 2021 19:20:59 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Yup, all those mass graves just up and disappeared. Vanished without a trace. Gone like the wind. Suuuuure, that's the ticket. The entire 13 hectares got blown up/dug up down to a depth of 30-40 feet. Anything can happen in holyhoax la-la land.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 10:54:20 GMT
Nessie wrote: Yup, all those mass graves just up and disappeared. Vanished without a trace. Gone like the wind. Suuuuure, that's the ticket. The entire 13 hectares got blown up/dug up down to a depth of 30-40 feet. Anything can happen in holyhoax la-la land. That is not what happened. Stop making up nonsense. You are the one in la-la land, making up strawman fallacies. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 13, 2021 17:20:21 GMT
Nessie wrote:
If that's not the case then where the hell are the graves? They didn't just effing disappear.
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