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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 22, 2021 20:10:52 GMT
How did the Soviets persuade the Dutch Jews and Dutch government in 1945 to pretend so many were gassed at Sobibor in 1943? The question is relevant, though to be honest you should really be doing research on this insteading of relying on what you think is sound information. It appears that a good many Jews did perish, especially in the cold of the Kaiserwald; a measles epidemic took the lives of a huge number of kids. People, like me and yourself, moan, even in summer when the power goes out for a few hours, unable to have a cup of tea and biscuits or put on the heater. Imagine living in a cardboard shack near the "Arctic Circle" in winter with no medicine, minimal nutrition and a candle for heat. I really do not think many of us would last long. However, many Jews did, some returned but the rest is still being investigated. Much is lost in the snows of time. The Dutch Government were duped just like the rest of the world as were the families. What is known is that the Soviets annexed the entire region keeping many jews prisoners. It is also known that post war there were a series of mass deportations to the Soviet taiga and mass executions. The Soviets murdered 15 million civilians post war. It is not unreasonable to assume that holocausted jews were amongst the murder tally. Of course the Germans got the blame.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2021 20:29:01 GMT
How did the Soviets persuade the Dutch Jews and Dutch government in 1945 to pretend so many were gassed at Sobibor in 1943? The question is relevant, though to be honest you should really be doing research on this insteading of relying on what you think is sound information. It appears that a good many Jews did perish, especially in the cold of the Kaiserwald; a measles epidemic took the lives of a huge number of kids. People, like me and yourself, moan, even in summer when the power goes out for a few hours, unable to have a cup of tea and biscuits or put on the heater. Imagine living in a cardboard shack near the "Arctic Circle" in winter with no medicine, minimal nutrition and a candle for heat. I really do not think many of us would last long. However, many Jews did, some returned but the rest is still being investigated. Much is lost in the snows of time. The Dutch Government were duped just like the rest of the world as were the families. What is known is that the Soviets annexed the entire region keeping many jews prisoners. It is also known that post war there were a series of mass deportations to the Soviet taiga and mass executions. The Soviets murdered 15 million civilians post war. It is not unreasonable to assume that holocausted jews were amongst the murder tally. Of course the Germans got the blame. How did the Soviets dupe the Dutch government? Show your evidence.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 22, 2021 20:40:41 GMT
How did the Soviets dupe the Dutch government? Show your evidence. The Soviet descendants are still continuing with it (after all people like yourself are still sucked in); I suspect Sergei Romanov knows this which is while his vileness oozes into every drain and sewer, polluting it. He is trying to cover up the sins of his fathers. Basically you "don't know what you don't know"; this is the motto of all "intelligence" services. Like Katyn the Soviets put a considerable amount of manpower and resources into creating a myth of magical proportions. Fabrication of evidence, stooge witnesses, fear, murder, terror are the tools of the trade for the Soviet Secret police and their offspring (KGB now FSB and SVR); they had about 40 years to work on this with all the documents and people necessary under their control and behind the "Iron Curtain". The Soviets murdered 15 million people post war (a total of 60 million all up); I am sure that any dissident witnesses would have met their fate. With the Soviets there were no bystanders; you are with them or against them, no middle ground. Poland was a vassal state, a puppet state of Moscow who did as they were ordered.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 23, 2021 10:59:41 GMT
How did the Soviets dupe the Dutch government? Show your evidence. The Soviet descendants are still continuing with it (after all people like yourself are still sucked in); I suspect Sergei Romanov knows this which is while his vileness oozes into every drain and sewer, polluting it. He is trying to cover up the sins of his fathers. Basically you "don't know what you don't know"; this is the motto of all "intelligence" services. Like Katyn the Soviets put a considerable amount of manpower and resources into creating a myth of magical proportions. Fabrication of evidence, stooge witnesses, fear, murder, terror are the tools of the trade for the Soviet Secret police and their offspring (KGB now FSB and SVR); they had about 40 years to work on this with all the documents and people necessary under their control and behind the "Iron Curtain". The Soviets murdered 15 million people post war (a total of 60 million all up); I am sure that any dissident witnesses would have met their fate. With the Soviets there were no bystanders; you are with them or against them, no middle ground. Poland was a vassal state, a puppet state of Moscow who did as they were ordered. I asked about the SU and the Dutch, you dodged.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 23, 2021 11:32:19 GMT
Nessie omits the fact that the inmates who describe atrocities are proven liars. Well, they just "exaggerated" or "misestimated" according to Nessie.
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Post by been_there on Dec 23, 2021 12:15:37 GMT
So how did what has become satirically known as the holyhoax โmass-gassingโ allegation come to be enshrined in the collective consciousness? Well, here is how: โ Through relentless media repetition equating unintended horrible camp conditions at the warโs end (which had been ascerbated by deliberately democidal Allied bombing of Axis infrastructure) with a totally unevidenced accusation that there had been a Third Reich policy of Jew-genocide. โ Through deliberate misinformation campaigns and black-arts psy-ops by Allied propaganda policies spearheaded by Jewish professionals like Sefton Delmer from Britain, the Ritchie boys, and the staff pulling the strings at Nuremberg from Amerca, Ilya Ehrenburg from Soviet Russia, etc., assisted by amateurs like Rudolph Vrba, Yankil Wiernik, Abraham Bomba, etc., ALL concocting atrocity propaganda that supported each others inventions/exaggerations/deceptions. โ Through using the fog-of-war confusion to introduce then entrench a narrative that few believed was possible and rejected upon first hearing it, but came to believe after the convincing but factually wrong, physically impossble and later redacted, coerced โconfessionโ of Rudolph Hรถร at Nuremberg. โ Through the ridiculous โ but accepted โ suggestion that all missing Jews at the wars end (falsely claimed to be 6 million) had been deliberately โexterminatedโ, most of them by being gassed in so-called โextermination campsโ*, (all of which camps* outside of the Russian-occupied zone later had to be admitted were not such). Many gullible and ignorant people โ despite being educated and intelligent โ believed that ridiculously impossible โ6 million gassedโ deception then at the time: and incredibly, many STILL believe it and repeat it now. I myself was told that all 6 million were โgassedโ by a highly educated octogenerian Indian in the Spring of 2019. I of course corrected him. And rather rarely, he was honest and intelligent enough after two days discussion to accept that correction. โ Through suppressing details and suppressing documentary evidence, plus by forging incriminating documents. โ By conducting unjust de-Nazification show-trials that permitted hate-motivated, vengeance testimony from Jews to become the incorrect but officially accepted account of what had occurred. โ By torturing, murdering, incarcerating, persecuting and/or โsuicidingโ any German who refuted the narrative. E.g. Auschwitz Kommandants Rudolf Hรถร and Richard Bauer, Dr. Pfannensteil, Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Kramer, Dr Fritz Klein, Thies Christopherssen, Judge Wilhelm Stรคgl, Engineer Walter Lรผfttl, housewife Ursula Haverbeck, etc., etc. On and on, decade after decade, right up to the current time. โ By inflating the numbers of missing Jews: โ By removing from its proper war-time context, the millions of missing persons of all nationalities and countries. โ Then there is the intimidation, persecution, โanti-semiteโ smearing, false accusations, career-destruction, shaming, societal ostracisation, thought-crime policing and hate-campaigning against any academic who dares deal with the topic accurately, honestly, objectively and impartially. A few examples of academcs who have been attacked in this way would be Professor Ernst Nolte; Professor Joel Hayward; Professor Norman Finkelstein; Henri Roques; Mark Weber; Harry Elmer Barnes; Professor Anthony Hall; a graduate of the University of Berkeley and qualified in philosophy, foreign languages, and modern European history who felt compelled to publish under the pseudonym of Samuel Crowell in order to continue to have a career and a free-lfe; another academic doing lke-wise using the pseudonym of Thomas Dalton, etc., etc., etc. These courageous, principled, honest historians do not share the exact same understanding but they DO share this much that they have all been smeared with the โanti-semitismโ canard and some form of censorship for publishing their honest views and research. And they are all evidence to this observation: โcensorshipโ and intimidation are the tools used when the subject matter being protected is unable to withstand critical scrutiny! In other words censorship and intimidation are required for PROTECTING an ahistorical narrative that is called โthe holocaustโ from honest investigation! If the above criteria are understood, then the questions repeatedly being asked have been answered. For example, by understanding that: โ there has been 1.) an inflation of the numbers of missing Jews
โ and by acknowledging the fact that 2.) the numbers of missing Jews has been removed from the context of war and displacement (e.g. the fact that Germany alone had over 20 million missing persons after May 1945) โ then it becomes clear that the questions repeatedly asking for the whereabouts of circa 2.5 million Jews is seen to be a form of stubbornly, wilful ignorance AND a form of genuine denial. Oh, the irony: as this shows it is actually the โHโ believers who are the actual deniers promoting a racist (anti-German) hate-trope!
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Post by been_there on Dec 24, 2021 15:44:02 GMT
HOW DOES A โHOAXโ WORK?
Ironically the recent reply claiming: โ[the] suggestion that ...people not gassed, never found out that they were supposed to have been gassed, is utterly idioticโ, demonstrates exactly HOW hoaxes are begun and maintained. It relies upon basic, egocentric, human psychology whereby those who have been โhoaxedโ would rather maintain the hoax themselves, than admit they were duped. This is how genuine โdenialโ of historical fact is integrated into the collective consciousness.
As Mark Twain observed: โit is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooledโ.
In this single example, the above claim of no h-survivor being aware they are believed to have been killed in a mass-gassing, has now been demonstrated as an โutterlyโ false belief. Yet amazingly this person will not admit his error. He instead tries to move the goalposts.
THIS, this, this shows a hoax being perpetuated by a victim of that hoax. Yet he insists on asking how that is done, even as he himself demonstrates how. ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ
The victim of the โhoaxโ denies that the Jewish woman with the name Yoshama November has been considered both: 1.) a โholocaust survivorโ AND 2.) a โholocaustโ victim and fatal casualty of the claimed โholocaust mass-gassingโ genocide.
This kind of duplicity is the reality upon which the holocaust genocide and โhoaxโ claims of mass-gassing are based.
It demonstrates the imprecision, the unreasonable speculation and the โspecial victimโ glorification that characterises this pesudo-historical and woefully innaccurate WW2 โshoahโ narrative.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 24, 2021 19:34:09 GMT
The moderation here is excessive and clearly designed to make challenges to certain claims made by certain people impossible. The hoax being alleged is physically impossible and unevidenced.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 24, 2021 19:51:34 GMT
The hoax being alleged is physically impossible and unevidenced. While the term is "hoax" it is really about a seemingly religious belief system built around a real genocide, instigated by the Soviets and their Jews, taken on board by those of similar religious persuasion and unethical beliefs for their own gain. It is now a multi billion dollars industry peddling "fake news", while the true story of misery goes unnoticed. The million + jews probably murdered by the Soviets goes unnoticed, or the other 30+ million others during that same time period. Millions of people suffered from terrible deprivations (including the Germans). Instead of discussing the misery suffered by millions, people like yourself write a "penny dreadful" scenario, all 16 pages, of what for the most part are imaginary people.
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Post by been_there on Dec 30, 2021 15:03:55 GMT
HOAXES WORK WHEN PEOPLE BELIEVE WHAT ISNโT TRUE
E.g. If you believe that only the concentration camps which were situated in Poland were extermination camps then you have accepted an evolving โexterminationโ narrative as if it were an immediately obvious, self-evident fact.
If you believe that this โexterminationโ narrative evolved due to genuine, unbiased, historical research and not due to propaganda-necessity then you have been deceived.
If you think you have not been deceived, then thatโs quite normal because that is the whole point of deception.
If now that you have been informed of the deception you donโt check with an open mind, that shows you are not interested in truth.
If you DO want to know the truth, then learn to let go of preconceptions/beliefs and look at the facts objectively without preconceived bias.
If you find that you donโt see any need to do that, as the truth appears obvious and already known to you, then you wonโt understand this but you are the victim of a hoax.
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Post by been_there on Jan 1, 2022 19:29:46 GMT
Anyone who wants to understand โwhat actually happenedโ to European Jews in Axis-occupied territory during WW2 needs a certain type of intellectual approach. First they need to understand that the narrative that was promulgated by underground anti-Axis groups during the war was: i.) not unbiased, ii.) may have been exaggerated or even completely invented atrocity propaganda, iii.) may have โevidenceโ supporting it that is forged or has been corrupted and therefore iv.) may not be reliable or accurate. Second they need to understand that those stories used as atrocity propaganda were possibly utilised by the Allied victors for their own purposes AFTER the cessation of conflict to prove guilt of the vanquished and to justify (and deflect attention from) their own colossal mass-murder of civilian non-combatants. Thirdly, the honest investigator has to look objectively and without pre-conceived bias at the WHOLE body of evidence. They have to look at it ALL, they canโt leave any of it out. So even stuff that's wierd or obviously ridiculous and untrue has to be incorporated into the honest over-view. Fourthly they then have to ask: โis this the evidence that SHOULD exist if the Jew genocide by mass-gassing hypothesis were true and accurate?โ If someone can not approach this narrative with all four prerequisite intellectual attitudes, then they are not equipped to accurately assess the historical accuracy of the โholocaustโ mass-gassing, genocide narrative. And I feel that any honest person should recognise that that disqualifies ALL historians currently publishing on the subject. As Sir Richard Drummond observed: โWho cannot reason is a fool, who will not reason is a bigot, and who dare not reason is a slave.โ
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 1, 2022 19:59:35 GMT
Anyone who wants to understand โwhat actually happenedโ to European Jews in Axis-occupied territory during WW2 needs a certain type of intellectual approach. First they need to understand that the narrative that was promulgated by underground anti-Axis groups during the war was: i.) not unbiased, ii.) may have been exaggerated or even completely invented atrocity propaganda, iii.) may have โevidenceโ supporting it that is forged or has been corrupted and therefore iv.) may not be reliable or accurate. Second they need to understand that those stories used as atrocity propaganda were possibly utilised by the Allied victors for their own purposes AFTER the cessation of conflict to prove guilt of the vanquished and to justify (and deflect attention from) their own colossal mass-murder of civilian non-combatants. Thirdly, the honest investigator has to look objectively and without pre-conceived bias at the WHOLE body of evidence. They have to look at it ALL, they canโt leave any of it out. So even stuff that's wierd or obviously ridiculous and untrue has to be incorporated into the honest over-view. Fourthly they then have to ask: โis this the evidence that SHOULD exist if the Jew genocide by mass-gassing hypothesis were true and accurate?โ If someone can not approach this narrative with all four prerequisite intellectual attitudes, then they are not equipped to accurately assess the historical accuracy of the โholocaustโ mass-gassing, genocide narrative. And I feel that any honest person should recognise that that disqualifies ALL historians currently publishing on the subject. As Sir Richard Drummond observed: โWho cannot reason is a fool, who will not reason is a bigot, and who dare not reason is a slave.โ
This topic is how does the hoax work?
You appear to be suggesting it works, at least in part, because all historians who have published histories of the Holocaust have been fooled into believing atrocity propaganda and faked evidence.
You then suggest the answer is to look again at the evidence, look for new evidence and to reassess that evidence.
You appear to be arguing that the entire history of the Holocaust needs to be reinvestigated as if it were new today and from a blank canvas with no preconceptions.
Is that a reasonable summation of your position?
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Post by been_there on Jan 23, 2022 11:46:52 GMT
Anyone who wants to understand โwhat actually happenedโ to European Jews in Axis-occupied territory during WW2 needs a certain type of intellectual approach... ...As Sir Richard Drummond observed: โWho can not reason is a fool, who will not reason is a bigot, and who dare not reason is a slave.โ Here below is the introduction of the article โ just linked by Turnagain โ from last yearโs Unz review. It confirms the ideas presented in the post above.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 7, 2022 16:29:46 GMT
All easily plausible once people start automatically assuming the rumours and initial propaganda is true. It is not plausible that every single person who has investigated the Holocaust claims have assumed the rumours were true. You have ignored that it is not possible c2.5 million kept quiet when they found out they had supposedly been gassed. Its entirely possible, especially given the judicial notice so frequently taken by figures in authority. Yes I have ignored the 2.5 million, because those numbers are ephemeral i.e. have no solid evidential basis nor any great number of names attached to them. But if you want to offer a name of a person who was definitely gassed Im all ears.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 7, 2022 17:10:08 GMT
It is not plausible that every single person who has investigated the Holocaust claims have assumed the rumours were true. You have ignored that it is not possible c2.5 million kept quiet when they found out they had supposedly been gassed. Its entirely possible, especially given the judicial notice so frequently taken by figures in authority. Exposing the hoax would make the journalist or historian very rich and famous. Politically, it would be a bombshell that would suit many. There is ample evidence to prove mass transports to the AR camps, Chelmno and A-B. Revisionists claim they were being resettled, but then refuse to examine how that could possibly be done, without leaving any evidence.
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