Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 11, 2023 8:32:55 GMT
How does that evidence TII was not a death camp and claims about it are part of a hoax? The two subcamps of the Treblinka 1 (Zwangarbeitslager fรผr Juden) were for men and for women. It is acknowledged they had extermination camps mentioned. There are also many other labour camps for Jews not mentioned by them, especially in the Ukraine. That aside, being Germans failing to mention the common narrative could be perceived by authorities as "Holocaust Denial" with the resulting penalties. They also did not correlate the labour camps for Jews with the extended stopping points on the Fahrplananordnung documents; that is not their brief. As discussed with evidence the correlation of extended stops at labour camps and railway junctions to other camps with the railway schedules approach 1. The alleged death camp has been put in various locations away from the current camp. In fact it is closer to Kosow Podlaski according to eye witnesses.(all discussed elsewhere) That death camp, if it existed is not the current location known as TII. The current TII due to its proximity to TI are most likely the judenlagers of that camp. This is indeed the description cited by Marian Olzuk. That other camp would also explain the following entry. The camp location is discussed here. Simply saying that the sources are wrong because you wish to believe the current narrative is fatuitous. Yad Vashem says: This agrees with the first map produced by Wiernik. There is also the fact that professional surveyors have north of their TII at 90 degrees to the north of the current TII. Then On 6 November 1945, investigating judge Z ลukaszkiewicz, in the presence of J. Maciejewski, a prosecutor of the District Court in Siedlce, K. Trautsolt, a sworn ground surveyor, witnesses Samuel Rajzman and Henryk Rajchman-Romanowski and Stanisลaw Kucharek, village leader of Wรณlka Okrฤ
glik, inspected the site where Treblinka death camp was located, Kosรณw Lacki municipality, Sokoลรณw Podlaski district. linkIn the course of the activities, with the witnesses and the village leader consulted for information and explanations, the following facts were established: Wolka Okraglik is south of the current TII not NE. The description above fits in with the US Intelligence above of the death camp of Kosow Podlaski. You are presenting evidence TII was a death camp. How does that evidence it was not a death camp? When I ask for alternative evidence, a certain poster here ridicules my request. You have just explained why they are being hoaxed, as they fail to look for alternatives. At least you are sensible enough to look for an alternative. As yet, you have a hypothesis that the Warsaw Jews were just cleared to nearby camps, not just sent to TII. You have no contemporaneous evidence to support that hypothesis.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 11, 2023 8:56:57 GMT
I am presenting evidence that what you think you know is wrong. The aim is identify the real story not some concocted crap. If there was a death camp it was not the current TII, but elsewhere.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 11, 2023 11:37:21 GMT
I am presenting evidence that what you think you know is wrong. The aim is identify the real story not some concocted crap. If there was a death camp it was not the current TII, but elsewhere. You are presenting me with a hypothesis. What you think is evidence, is not, especially when that evidence calls TII a death camp!!!!! For you to evidence the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto were not killed at TII in 1942-3, but instead were resettled at camps in the area, you need evidence from witnesses who were on the transports who went to those camps, testimony from Nazi who worked at the camps, records from the camps that show the arrival of Warsaw Jews in 1942-3, or documentation about the operation to resettle them. The problem you have is a lack of training and knowledge as to what is evidence, which is why you have fallen for the Holocaust denial hoax.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 11, 2023 23:21:50 GMT
I am presenting evidence that what you think you know is wrong. The aim is identify the real story not some concocted crap. If there was a death camp it was not the current TII, but elsewhere. You are presenting me with a hypothesis. What you think is evidence, is not, especially when that evidence calls TII a death camp!!!!! For you to evidence the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto were not killed at TII in 1942-3, but instead were resettled at camps in the area, you need evidence from witnesses who were on the transports who went to those camps, testimony from Nazi who worked at the camps, records from the camps that show the arrival of Warsaw Jews in 1942-3, or documentation about the operation to resettle them. The evidence is presented from the CIA, your own Witness Wiernik, from professional surveyors and from the town people elders of the nearest town. I have mentioned previously that any Jews involved in any uprising would expect to be killed due to policies of non uniform combatants. Evidence is presented that this was done at Czerwony-bor which if said quickly to an English speaker would sound exactly like Sobi-bor. In fact Sobi-bor was a transit camp according the SS document presented on this forum. A casual listener would mistake one for the other, a mistake becoming fact. Evidence was presented of the high correlation of extended train stops at Labour camps specifically for Jews, some Jews from Sobi-bor ended up at these camps, so did some from Treblinka, these train stops have a 100% correlation to the stops on the train schedules called "Die Fahrplananordnung" where the final destination was the Treblinka camps. It is highly probable that most of the Jews got off on each of those stops or caught other trains at the Junctions. Most of the prisoners arriving at these railway Jewish camps of course arrived by train. Trains were the common mode of transport in that era, it being self evident that trains were used. When there is an exception when a person leaves a transit camp and arrives at another using cart, walking or truck it is sometimes mentioned. It should be obvious to any reader the real reason why most of the Jewish labour camps were built near railway lines. Those that were not producing goods but working on other projects such as roads used temporary camps in the area they were working. That evidence is presented in the Ukrainian Jewish labour camps on this board. Lejb along with Salmen who says: Are correct about their personal experiences from Malkinia to Auschwitz, but fabricate the rest. They would not have seen the demise of their fellow passengers; all they would know is that they were separated and have made invalid assumptions. To be honest this is the same assumption as nearly all of the eyewitnesses, especially the Sobi-bor Dutch Survivors who have made similar statements. Evidence was also presented that there were two Judenlagers associated with Treblinka 1 existing up to 1944. There is also evidence that the Jews in many cases were highly transitory going from one place to another as work was required. Many of these camps were also very temporary closing as the work was completed in that area. Evidence was also presented that the SS were in charge of relatively few labour camps, this was done mainly by the labour Service in conjunction with OT and OS groups. Most of their paper work has disappeared. People like the poster above rely on this lack of information lost in the wars conflagration to concoct fantastic stories some with a grain of truth. The euthanasia policy also known as 14f13 was in places at transit camps such as Sobi-bor and Birkenau. German law required euthanasia to be carried out by qualified personnel which is why specialists were sent to such places. If mass murder was needed mere executioners could be used. The poster is carrying on with the same theme of resettlement, SS camps, paper work etc when this is only part of a much larger picture. The Jewish labour camp system was much more massive than envisaged when Ulrich Herbert wrote his book "Forced Laborers in the Third Reich: An Overview". To show the sheer scale of labour requirements the first sentence speaks volumes. The reality is that there were 12 million workers though out the war. The German need for labour grew to the point that even children were sequestered to work in an operation called the "Heu-Aktion". On arrival in Germany, the children were turned over to Organisation Todt and to the Junkers aircraft works. ("Herrenmensch" und "Bandit" Deutsche Kriegsfรผhrung und Besatzungspolitik als Kontext des sowjetischen Partisanenkrieges(1941-44)Timm C. Richter page 106). More than 2,000 German companies profited from forced labour during the Nazi era, including Deutsche Bank and Siemens. People like the poster above use gaps in knowledge to force their narrative down peoples throats; those that disagree in various countries suffer legal penalties. Hoaxers like the poster above attempt to get personal suggesting that anyone who disagrees with them have little understanding. Others such as the idiots at Klowns use abuse, sarcasm to intimidate. They call themselves Skeptics but the name should be changed to Cynics. The poster above is locked into a cycle of self deception, using circular reasoning over and over again, like a gold fish in a bowl. He and his ilk are all in different bowls swimming in circles, some in the opposite direction.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 12, 2023 8:09:35 GMT
You are presenting me with a hypothesis. What you think is evidence, is not, especially when that evidence calls TII a death camp!!!!! For you to evidence the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto were not killed at TII in 1942-3, but instead were resettled at camps in the area, you need evidence from witnesses who were on the transports who went to those camps, testimony from Nazi who worked at the camps, records from the camps that show the arrival of Warsaw Jews in 1942-3, or documentation about the operation to resettle them. The evidence is presented from the CIA, your own Witness Wiernik, from professional surveyors and from the town people elders of the nearest town. I have mentioned previously that any Jews involved in any uprising would expect to be killed due to policies of non uniform combatants. The CIA, Wiernik and the people you mention "from the nearest town" do not evidence that Warsaw Jews were being dropped off at the stops en route to TII. Czerwony-bor is 232km or a 2 day walk from Sobibor according to google maps. Poles and then historians investigating what happened at Sobibor would not mix it up with a place that distance away. You presented a report about a transport that explained why the trains stopped, it was to change guards, refuel the train, fit in with existing timetables and fix the carriages to stop escapes. You have pressented NO evidence the stops were to let Jews off to go to labour camps. You are the one making assumptions. It is a secondary source that lists TII as a death camp. Which was all done under Nazi control, which makes the Nazis responsible for what happened to the Jews in their custody. You dodge that you cannot evidence millions of Jews in camps at the end of 1944 and that Nazi records show massive drops in the Jewish population. There is far more evidence that you accept, and you dodge that because the evidence is of mass killings. That policy had been officially cancelled and the staff transferred to AR. People used to mass killing the disabled were transferred to work at camps mass killing the Jews. I can evidence mass killings. You cannot evidence millions of Jews still alive in 1945.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Sept 12, 2023 8:29:28 GMT
The CIA, Wiernik and the people you mention "from the nearest town" do not evidence that Warsaw Jews were being dropped off at the stops en route to TII. That is not the argument being made, what was said was that the location of the death camp is different to what is currently thought. Misrepresenting an argument is trolling. It seems they never considered that the real site of death was Czerwony bor now a prison. I see nothing above about changing guards etc. Perhaps you can explain how the jews in those camps along the railway lines full of jews got there? Did they get there by balloon or something? It is a secondary source that lists TII as a death camp. Which was all done under Nazi control, which makes the Nazis responsible for what happened to the Jews in their custody. You dodge that you cannot evidence millions of Jews in camps at the end of 1944 and that Nazi records show massive drops in the Jewish population. You are just quoting the narrative and trolling. Perhaps but have not yet presented it yet in how many years. People on this forum have presented that the Jews killed for the greater part were paper Jews that never existed in the first place.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 12, 2023 11:32:13 GMT
This topic is about how the hoax worked. Nazgul's beliefs about the location of TII explains why he has fallen for the hoax, with his belief in something he cannot evidence to have happened.
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Post by Ulios on Sept 12, 2023 12:40:14 GMT
This topic is about how the hoax worked. Nazgul's beliefs about the location of TII explains why he has fallen for the hoax, with his belief in something he cannot evidence to have happened. FFS he gave evidence from real witness of the location of the real camp, that is based on the evidence. He is not required to evidence what happemed. Stop trolling you jew.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 12, 2023 13:16:38 GMT
This topic is about how the hoax worked. Nazgul's beliefs about the location of TII explains why he has fallen for the hoax, with his belief in something he cannot evidence to have happened. FFS he gave evidence from real witness of the location of the real camp, that is based on the evidence. There are multiple witnesses to a death camp on the spur line at Treblinka. For there to have been a hoax, they all, local Poles, Nazis both German and Ukrainian and Jews had to lie till their deaths. There is no witness who speaks to something different happening at that camp. The simpler hoax is the "Holocaust denial" one, which only needs some people to fall for revisionist claims about the camp. If he wants to be taken seriously in terms of investigating history, he does. Otherwise, he reveals revisionism/denial as a fake form of investigation. When people are struggling with their beliefs and feel under threat, they resort to abuse.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 12, 2023 21:04:11 GMT
There is no witness who speaks to something different happening at that camp. Blatant trolling or a memory relapse or prolapse. Marian Olszuk passed close by the 'extermination camp' every day that he went to work at the quarry, and when he worked on the family plot, he was also right near the 'extermination camp.'...Even though, of course, he never entered the camp area, every day people gathered in groups outside the front gate, openly engaging in barter and black market dealing. ....Had Marian Olszuk ever noticed signs of homicidal activities by the Germans in this 'extermination camp?' His answer was No.Dr. Robert Faurisson
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 13, 2023 7:16:26 GMT
There is no witness who speaks to something different happening at that camp. Blatant trolling or a memory relapse or prolapse. Marian Olszuk passed close by the 'extermination camp' every day that he went to work at the quarry, and when he worked on the family plot, he was also right near the 'extermination camp.'...Even though, of course, he never entered the camp area, every day people gathered in groups outside the front gate, openly engaging in barter and black market dealing. ....Had Marian Olszuk ever noticed signs of homicidal activities by the Germans in this 'extermination camp?' His answer was No.Dr. Robert FaurissonOlszuk did not work inside TII. He speaks to people in distress inside the camp, a terrible smell and made no mention of mass transports of people back out of the camp. Nothing he states contradicts the death camp evidence.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 15, 2023 10:36:19 GMT
Olszuk did not work inside TII. He speaks to people in distress inside the camp, a terrible smell and made no mention of mass transports of people back out of the camp. Nothing he states contradicts the death camp evidence. I will present Faurisson's full statement and let viewers decide.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2023 7:17:51 GMT
From Faurisson;
Olszuk said no, then he corroborated witnesses who worked inside the camp, who spoke about taking everything from those about to be gassed, those people being driven to the gas chambers and the mass graves causing a terrible smell.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Sept 16, 2023 11:22:31 GMT
Olszuk said no, then he corroborated witnesses who worked inside the camp, who spoke about taking everything from those about to be gassed, those people being driven to the gas chambers and the mass graves causing a terrible smell. The wails were at night. There are many instances of Jews wailing which is why they have a wailing wall in Jeru-salem. Wailing is a part of Jewish culture, a form of prayer. There was only one instance of a bad smell and only one instance of smoke from Zabecki, a photo of the insurrection. A lonely station, a spy with a camera and he only takes one photo, a photo of a Jewish insurrection. In the year or so that TII existed and burning a multitude of bodies, it would be inexcusable for a high positioned spy to not take photos of daily burnings. All he does is take a single photo, timetables out of context and that is a holocaust. Olszuk said nothing about gassing. Olszuk said he saw no evidence of death at the camp except for legitimate executions.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 16, 2023 13:47:20 GMT
Olszuk said no, then he corroborated witnesses who worked inside the camp, who spoke about taking everything from those about to be gassed, those people being driven to the gas chambers and the mass graves causing a terrible smell. The wails were at night. There are many instances of Jews wailing which is why they have a wailing wall in Jeru-salem. Wailing is a part of Jewish culture, a form of prayer. There was only one instance of a bad smell and only one instance of smoke from Zabecki, a photo of the insurrection. A lonely station, a spy with a camera and he only takes one photo, a photo of a Jewish insurrection. In the year or so that TII existed and burning a multitude of bodies, it would be inexcusable for a high positioned spy to not take photos of daily burnings. All he does is take a single photo, timetables out of context and that is a holocaust. Olszuk said nothing about gassing. Olszuk said he saw no evidence of death at the camp except for legitimate executions. Quote him saying he saw an execution. Why did he not report seeing trains leaving the camp packed full of people?
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