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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 30, 2021 23:59:23 GMT
Treblinka II location Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, says: The current TII is 4km south east of the village of Treblinka not North West as indicated above. The camp is not rectangular either, nor is it 400m x 600m. However, 4km NE of Treblinka railway station is the Malkinia railway Junction. This area has the dimensions specified in the above encyclopedia. The layout of this place fit with Wierniks first map, which will be laid alongside the cleared area. This area was designated as the Treblinka Extermination camp by Yad VashemThe only anomaly is this place is 4km NE of the Treblinka Station not NW; everything else fits in.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2021 21:26:59 GMT
I have provided some evidence that Treblinka camp was in fact the Malkinia camp located at the Junction of the railway line heading North. This does not mean there was not another camp some 8km south of this point currently called TII. All of these camps (including Czerwony bor and Kosow Podlaski) were part of the Treblinka camp complex. It is possible that witnesses were confused as to what camp they were in; this would account for a vastly divergent number of claims that have been made. The shape of the TII camp was supposedly unique in that is was trapezoid. There is little doubt that the current TII camp has the trapezoid quality. This can clearly be seen in the North facing 1943 image below: The area of this is only about 10 ha and not the 26 ha as claimed by other witnesses; this is not a minor discrepancy. The following survey map (1945) has the area even smaller with North in the wrong direction; the arrow is heading East. Incompetent Surveyors? The roads and the railway line are in the correct perspective. Does the Malkinia junction loop have a trapezoid shape? The area calculated is roughly 26 ha as some witnesses claim; it has a northerly aspect. Here is a photo of the Malkinia junction with the shape outlined. A map of TII is added next to this for comparison. One may notice the rectangular darkened area to the south east which corresponds to the extermination area in the diagram. To highlight some aspects for interested readers here is a slightly updated version of the above image.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2021 23:49:59 GMT
It appears we have two TIIs with a trapezoid shape. Above, I put in an image the Surveyor made; this image does not look like the TII in other trapezoid images of the camp such as this image on the information sign for visitors: As described above this trapezoid camp image is more aligned with the Malkinia loop than the more Southerly location near the Quarry. I have altered the perspective of the google image through rotation. One can clearly discern the shape in the google image as being identical (more or less) to the surveyor image. This is the boundary of the Treblinka camp near the quarry which everyone refers to TII. I have shown the Easterly direction on the google image which is different to the surveyors map; there should be a discussion as to why trained surveyors got the directions wrong. A similar image can be seen at deathcamps.org ( KUDLIK, WIERNIK, TRAUTSOLT MAP, and others). All these maps have a more or less identical shape to the google image above but with North out by 90 degrees. This is corrected in a later map morph. KUDLIK, LAKS, PLATKIEWICZ MAPA suggested reason for the morphing was that the cartographers were in different camps, all thinking they were in the same place; Wiernik, it seems was in the Malkinia camp which has a slight elongated trapezoid shape. North, the roads and the extermination area are in the correct place as well as the size of the camp. The others were in the camp near the quarry, also trapezoid, but much smaller.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 3, 2021 16:31:29 GMT
Numerous witnesses speak to TII being the camp located on the spur line leading to Treblinka labout camp and quarry, which is in the area shown here; 
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 3, 2021 16:34:25 GMT
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 3, 2021 17:10:11 GMT
Thank you Nessie for repeating for what is already well known. No one is denying there was a camp of sorts at the current location of TII as indicated in your maps(photos). However, due to the discrepancies in Wierniks' map one and the following early entry from the Holocaust Encyclopaedia: the location of this place is the Malkinia railway loop. For some reason North in the early days was indicated by early surveyors was in in fact East. By those early errors the Malkinia loop camp (Treblinka) would be exactly 4 km NW of the Treblinka railway station. The area of the place as indicated in photos above is 400m x 600m. Please read the above properly for more information. The alleged extermination quadrant can be clearly seen aligning with the Treblinka maps.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 3, 2021 17:16:09 GMT
As you say, you have spotted two discrepancies. The camp, TII is located as I have shown. The two sources you are highlighting are wrong.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 3, 2021 17:23:17 GMT
As you say, you have spotted two discrepancies. The camp, TII is located as I have shown. The two sources you are highlighting are wrong. That may be TII, but the Treblinka, (Tremblinka) camp was it would appear at the Malkinia loop. This ticks far more boxes than the current TII and will explain the discrepancies in observations, maps and other issues. I am not sure if you are in a position to tell the Holocaust Encyclopedia they are wrong or Yankel Wiernik; are you a "denier" or a "revisionist'? The faint tracks and the alleged extermination area fits precisely with the Treblinka map as well as the general layout, the size, where North is and so on.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 3, 2021 18:57:25 GMT
From the Holocaust Encyclopedia encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/treblinka"Treblinka II was opened approximately a mile south of the labor camp..." Where do you get the quote you use in the OP? As for Wiernik, that plan has the railway line incorrectly marked, but his book "A Year in Treblinka" makes it clear that the camp he was at, was not at Malkinia.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 4, 2021 4:16:17 GMT
Where do you get the quote you use in the OP? As for Wiernik, that plan has the railway line incorrectly marked, but his book "A Year in Treblinka" makes it clear that the camp he was at, was not at Malkinia. Israel Gutman (ed.), Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 4 vols., Macmillan, New York 1990, vol. 4, p. 1481-87. The Malkinia facility was a correctional centre; the loop camp was a Treblinka camp it would seem. The beauty about books is that information is not so easily morphed as electronic media. Current sources have altered information to suit the current thinking,(sanitation) just as Wiernik and others have altered their maps etc to align with the new normal sanitized versions. Just as Wiernik had north heading East in his first map and much later also with a professional surveyors map, it is clear people in the area had their bearings wrong. For some reason they thought east was north. Following the instructions in the Encyclopedia mentioned above here is the location on google maps. (4 km NW of the Treblinka railway station)
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 4, 2021 10:43:38 GMT
Where do you get the quote you use in the OP? As for Wiernik, that plan has the railway line incorrectly marked, but his book "A Year in Treblinka" makes it clear that the camp he was at, was not at Malkinia. Israel Gutman (ed.), Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 4 vols., Macmillan, New York 1990, vol. 4, p. 1481-87. Please provide a link, scan or other way to see that, I want to know why in the OP, that the quote starts "(Treblinka)" as that use of brackets tells me, that is not the actual word used and it has been added.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 4, 2021 18:19:47 GMT
Please provide a link, scan or other way to see that, I want to know why in the OP, that the quote starts "(Treblinka)" as that use of brackets tells me, that is not the actual word used and it has been added. It says "the camp". It is definitive so there may be the following camps in the area: - Treblinka
- Treblinka I (quarry)
- Treblinka II (judenlager)
- Treblinka III (Czerwony bor)
- Treblinka IV (Kosow Podlaski)
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 4, 2021 18:36:30 GMT
The camp commonly referred to as TII, the Action Reinhardt death camp, is located on the spur line running to Treblinka labour camp. Any suggestion that the TII AR death camp is located elsewhere, is wrong.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 5, 2021 1:50:16 GMT
The camp commonly referred to as TII, the Action Reinhardt death camp, is located on the spur line running to Treblinka labour camp. Any suggestion that the TII AR death camp is located elsewhere, is wrong. We are discussing Treblinka not Treblinka II; Treblinka II was the Judenlager next to the quarry full of Warsaw jews. No need to discuss this camp anymore. I think that Wierniks first map was correct in what he thought was an extermination area next to the Warsaw Bialystok line; this aligns with the independent Holocaust Encyclopedia entry which puts Treblinka at the Malkinia rail loop.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Dec 5, 2021 3:53:29 GMT
Treblinka location Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, says: โThe camp was situated in a sparsely populated area near Malkinia, a railway station on the main Warsaw-Biaลystok line; the campโs precise location was 2.5 miles (4 km) north west of the village and railway stop of Treblinka. The site selected was heavily wooded and well hidden from view. The camp was laid out in a rectangle 1,312 feet wide by 1,968 feet long (400 x 600 m), Yad Vashem gives a similar location, on the Warsaw to Bialystok main trunk line. The loop is only 1 km from the current Malkinia railway station and not 4 km (2.5 miles) as in the caption below. Yad Vashem says: Treblinka They are talking about the extermination camp Treblinka and not the Malkinia railway station.
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