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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 7, 2021 20:24:56 GMT
AR must have also had prvision as to what to do with the people once their property had been stolen from them. You cherry pick Olszuk. Every single witness who was inside TII said it was a death camp. All the Polish rail workers said it was a death camp. They were sent on their merry way, by transports. I think the issue you have Nessie is that you assume the Judenlager (TII) as described by the reliable witness Olszuk was the AR camp; AR appears to be an initiative and could be relegated to a number of places such as the Treblinka camp at Malkinia. Zabecki the Polish rail worker was a spy; disinformation was their game. His information cannot be trusted and treated with great caution. One can ask why the Gestapo did not throw him into the camp or summarily execute him. The security was pathetically lax. Henryk Gawkowski, the Polish rail train driver had only become aware of the alleged Treblinka II atrocities post war. Faurisson interview Gawkowski and posited the following question. Perhaps there are other Polish rail workers Nessie may wish to present. You lectured me on cherry picking, as you cherry picked Olszuk and now you admit that there are lots of witnesses you have clearly not read. You are proving that you do not have a credible methodology for assessing if witness evidence is reliable. You just believe the witnesses who say what you want to hear and you dismiss those who do not.
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Post by Tribunus Laticlavius on Dec 7, 2021 20:52:11 GMT
You lectured me on cherry picking, as you cherry picked Olszuk and now you admit that there are lots of witnesses you have clearly not read. You are proving that you do not have a credible methodology for assessing if witness evidence is reliable. You just believe the witnesses who say what you want to hear and you dismiss those who do not. How can I dismiss those other witnesses if I have not read their testimony? How many "station masters" does it take to run a small rural station? Jรณzef Kuลบmiลski
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 23, 2021 14:06:21 GMT
In another thread, Turnagain said "Uh-huh, the Rosenblatts lied but everyone else just "exaggerated", "misestimated", "engaged in hyperbole" but otherwise told the truth. Witnesses are always given lots and lots of leeway in court which always take into account their embellishments. Nessie has an MA and is a trained interrogator and declares that's the way it is. So there!"
Anyone with any court experience, knows that witnesses are given lots of leeway, because witness memory is the least reliable for of evidence, due to known flaws of memory. A court would be very suspicious of witnesses who all gave very precise, detailed evidence that matched perfectly with known facts, as that would evidence collusion and rehearsing evidence.
If a court were to ask 10 witness to say what size they thought a hole in the ground was, the court would expect 10 varying answers. If 10 witnesses were asked how many people were packed into a room, the court would expect a variation in the answers. If 10 witnesses were asked to describe building, a court would expect to get 10 varying answers.
Witness are known to embellish evidence, make mistakes, exaggerate, forget etc, it happens in pretty much every single trial. Only revisionists think otherwise and that if 10 truthful witnesses were asked to say what size a hole was, how many people fitted into a room and to describe a building, they would give the same answer, with hardly any variation.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 23, 2021 14:18:02 GMT
This post has just been moved to "gibberish". Turnagain claims that all the witness to gassings are known liars. rodoh.info/post/2057He states "Nessie omits the fact that the inmates who describe atrocities are proven liars. Well, they just "exaggerated" or "misestimated" according to Nessie." Yet again, he is suggesting that truthful witnesses will not exaggerate or misestimate. Where is his evidence, from the study of witness behaviour, that is the case? Turnagain has not proved the witnesses to gassings are liars because 1 - he does not use a credible or reliable methodology for determining is someone has lied or not 2 - he is refusing to acknowledge the massive scale of the lie that you allege 3 - he is refusing to acknowledge that witnesses are the least reliable form of evidence and it is normal for them to make mistakes. There is lots of information about the known flaws in witness evidence online; www.verywellmind.com/can-you-trust-eyewitness-testimony-4579757That article covers issues relating to immediacy and how a witness is interviewed, issues no revisionist ever takes into account, because no revisionist has nay experience with eyewitness evidence.
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 23, 2021 14:47:48 GMT
In any court a witness may say that the car was dark green and another may say blue without being a conscious perjurer. When one witness states that it was a car, another says an 18 wheeler and a third declares it locomotive the lie is given away. Nessie tries to equate demonstrable lies and impossibilities with minor mistakes. Were there five graves or eleven? Were 200 cadavers cremated at a time or 3,000? Did twigs, brush and camp detritus serve as fuel for cremating the cadavers or was there an adequate amount of fuel? If wood was the fuel, where did it come from? Did most say that gas chambers existed? Yes and most swore that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. Did some say that the air was pumped out of the chamber? Yes, they did. Nessie excuses it all as (heh-heh) just some "exaggerations", "hyperbole" and other assorted bullshit while declaring himself to be the expert on court procedure and witness interrogation. Nessie is full of more shit than a Christmas goose.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 23, 2021 16:50:57 GMT
In any court a witness may say that the car was dark green and another may say blue without being a conscious perjurer. When one witness states that it was a car, another says an 18 wheeler and a third declares it locomotive the lie is given away. Nessie tries to equate demonstrable lies and impossibilities with minor mistakes. Were there five graves or eleven? Were 200 cadavers cremated at a time or 3,000? Did twigs, brush and camp detritus serve as fuel for cremating the cadavers or was there an adequate amount of fuel? If wood was the fuel, where did it come from? Did most say that gas chambers existed? Yes and most swore that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. Did some say that the air was pumped out of the chamber? Yes, they did. Nessie excuses it all as (heh-heh) just some "exaggerations", "hyperbole" and other assorted bullshit while declaring himself to be the expert on court procedure and witness interrogation. Nessie is full of more shit than a Christmas goose. The eyewitnesses to gassings were very similar in their claims. They all say death was inside a chamber, by asphyxiation and they only vary in how that was done. They all say engine exhaust was used, with some thinking air was pumped out, or both. That is the same as witnesses who all speak about a car, but vary in details about the car.
The variations in how many graves there were are easily explained by what parts of the camp the witness was referring to and which parts they had been in. The numbers cremated at each time are also consistent with witnesses speaking about the cremations they saw and their estimations given many years after the event.
Your lack of experience with witnesses and desire to think up excuses to call them all liars, means you are making up false claims about how truthful witnesses behave. Show me a study of witnesses that proves truthful witnesses do not exaggerate, do not use hyperbole, do not make mistakes etc. You bang on about courts and trials, whilst ignoring all the witnesses we discuss were all tested, often more than once, during court procedures and found to be truthful about the gassing, graves and mass cremations. The courts are used to how witnesses behave, you are not.
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Post by Tribunus Laticlavius on Dec 23, 2021 19:51:07 GMT
You have no idea of Turnagains experience, so please stop making assumptions. Witnesses are renown for lying committing perjury along with their friends and families. Despite the judge and prosecuting officer knowing this charges have to be dropped because the cross examination at the time could not expose it.
The matter could be pursued at a later date but this would seem like the law enforcement authority are hounding people. This is not in the public interest and bad PR.
Secret Police of course are not bound by such rules of conduct; the Gestapo followed the rule of law, so did the NKVD but they could shoot first and ask questions later. Most people simply complied with their request; if they demanded the sky was red it was red. US Military Intelligence were secret police as were the British in war time, which is why thousands of innocent Germans and others were brutally tortured and murdered at their hands (Himmler, Dachau SS); the crimes of the Geheime Feldpolizei and SS are brought up with regular monotony but the atrocities of their allied counterparts are hidden under the carpet. They had the power to coerce any confession they wished. The Soviets murdered 15 million civilians post war; I am sure many of those were people who had true knowledge of the holocaust and camps like Treblinka. Marian Olszuk should consider himself lucky.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 23, 2021 20:03:03 GMT
You have no idea of Turnagains experience, so please stop making assumptions. He told me his sole experience of being a witness in court. He has no experience taking witness statements. There is no evidence of coercion during the West German trials, which is where much of the evidence as what happened at the AR camps came from.
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Post by Tribunus Laticlavius on Dec 23, 2021 21:26:25 GMT
There is no evidence of coercion during the West German trials, which is where much of the evidence as what happened at the AR camps came from. Don't you find it strange that mass murderers at these trials only get a few years in jail. A few years for the murder of 850 000 people at Treblinka. Name | Sentence years | Kurt Franz
| 28 | Erwin Lambert | 4 | Gustav Mรผnzberger | 12 | Albert Rum | 3 | Otto Stadie | 6 | Franz Suchomel | 7 |
In more modern times, mass murderers get much more: - Anders Behring Breivik... Murdered... 77 people... sentenced to containment link
- Brenton Tarrant... Murdered... 51 people... Life imprisonment without parole link
Getting back to an AR camp, Treblinka August Miete (life imprisonment..released 1985) at his trial, said: It is clear that Miete was part of Aktion 14f13. He shot between 3 and 20 people from each transport. Willi Mentz (life imprisonment..released 1978) Once again a 14f13 organizer.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 24, 2021 14:02:46 GMT
There is no evidence of coercion during the West German trials, which is where much of the evidence as what happened at the AR camps came from. Don't you find it strange that mass murderers at these trials only get a few years in jail. A few years for the murder of 850 000 people at Treblinka. Name | Sentence years | Kurt Franz
| 28 | Erwin Lambert | 4 | Gustav Mรผnzberger | 12 | Albert Rum | 3 | Otto Stadie | 6 | Franz Suchomel | 7 |
In more modern times, mass murderers get much more: - Anders Behring Breivik... Murdered... 77 people... sentenced to containment link
- Brenton Tarrant... Murdered... 51 people... Life imprisonment without parole link
Getting back to an AR camp, Treblinka August Miete (life imprisonment..released 1985) at his trial, said: It is clear that Miete was part of Aktion 14f13. He shot between 3 and 20 people from each transport. Willi Mentz (life imprisonment..released 1978) Once again a 14f13 organizer. The light sentences were due to many of those who worked in the West German criminal justice system were ex Nazis and sympathetic to the claims of those accused that they were doing what was, at that time lawful, they had no choice and there was a war ongoing. The death penalty had been abolished and de-Nazification was about rehabilitation, not vengeance. The West German trials were the perfect opportunity for the ex-Nazis to put the record straight, if something other than gassings had taken place in the AR camps. Instead, they all admitted gassings took place.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 24, 2021 21:24:59 GMT
The light sentences were due to many of those who worked in the West German criminal justice system were ex Nazis and sympathetic to the claims of those accused that they were doing what was, at that time lawful, they had no choice and there was a war ongoing. Interestingly in the early 1950s, a survey found that just 5% of Germans admitted feeling โguiltyโ toward Jews, and only 29% agreed that Germany owed restitution to the Jewish people. Perhaps the judges were a part of the 95% that felt no guilt. Most likely scenario is that the judges were well aware that the defendants were "scapegoats",an example had to be made. Another likelihood is the formulation of statements which would involve suggestions of "remorse"; admitting gassing etc. Contrition goes a long way for early parole release in all societies. I am sure they would have hated to end up in Spandau like Heร until they rotted. I do believe you think this dribble is true. ๐คค No one was de nazified.
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 24, 2021 21:54:39 GMT
Nessie wrote:
You have no way of knowing that the judges were sympathetic ex-National Socialists or if the defendants were given weak sentences in return for guilty pleas. You're sweeping statement shows your bias and preconceived notions and the denial of any other explanations.
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 26, 2021 12:54:27 GMT
Moving my replies to other parts of the forum, to make it appear that your unevidenced claims are not even being challenged, is very dishonest. You have evidence that the courts were all ex-National Socialists and sympathetic to the German defendants? Well, don't be shy about it, let's see what ya' got.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Dec 26, 2021 14:32:42 GMT
Moving my replies to other parts of the forum, to make it appear that your unevidenced claims are not even being challenged, is very dishonest. You have evidence that the courts were all ex-National Socialists and sympathetic to the German defendants? Well, don't be shy about it, let's see what ya' got. You are exaggerating the claim I made, which in itself was hyperbole to make a point. I do not have a list of who was who for each West German trial and if they had been members of the Nazis, or sympathetic and collaborated with them. But, considering the support the Nazs had, and the result of the trials, with many acquittals and light sentences, there is no doubt that your claims they were coerced or somehow manipulated into confessing to what happened, is nonsense. It is certainly unevidenced.
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Post by Tribunus Laticlavius on Dec 26, 2021 17:57:34 GMT
considering the support the Nazs had, and the result of the trials, with many acquittals and light sentences, there is no doubt that your claims they were coerced or somehow manipulated into confessing to what happened, is nonsense. It is certainly unevidenced. Surprising what people say when they wish to appear good to the parole board. Contrition is a powerful tool.
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