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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 11, 2021 20:56:45 GMT
The transports to the Gmina Małkinia Górna district, within Ostrów Mazowiecka County Poland are an important topic. Questions can be asked such as: where did these trains come from?, what route?, how long did they take?, which route did they take upon leaving?, who were the occupants? why were they transported?.
This thread is not to determine whether TII was a transit camp or whatever, but to gather information on the rolling stock. Readers can decide for themselves if the information corroborates the claim that the transports were for the extermination of a group of people.
It seems that a large number of trains and occupants bypassed TII heading directly to Bialystok via Malkinia, while others left Malkinia junction heading to Siedlce.
Is it possible that some trains backed into the Treblinka spur, passengers disembarking and embarking like normal trains?. Is it possible that a train heading to and from Siedlce stopped on the track adjacent to the camps allowing people to disembark?; the distance to the camp is matter of metres away.
The issue of transports may also involve the narrow gauge railway that was found in the Treblinka camp region. Transports also involved goods, stock, military equipment and not just people.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 15:12:18 GMT
This is an interesting post about transports going through Malkinia. Some transports from Auschwitz were recorded as coming from Malkinia: littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/auschwitz-as-transit-camp-salonika-auschwitz-malkinia/There is a poster here who calls himself "littlegreyrabbitofinle" but I am not sure if he is the same author of this blogpost or somebody spoofing the name. MGK seem to say that this transport arriving at Auschwitz from Malkinia passed through T-II, but more likely this transport, like many other transports, never stopped at T-II. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 15, 2021 19:55:40 GMT
This is an interesting post about transports going through Malkinia. Some transports from Auschwitz were recorded as coming from Malkinia MGK seem to say that this transport arriving at Auschwitz from Malkinia passed through T-II, but more likely this transport, like many other transports, never stopped at T-II. It is interesting that Malkinia is cited as the destination station but not unsurprising considering that the 260+ judenlagers in Weißreußen. Vladimir Makei, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Belarus said: What happened to the people in these camps are of great interest; little is known about them, not even their names. These along with the other camps gives an estimate of about 600 locations of interest. Some camps held up to 20 thousand but the average appears to be 2000 souls. These camps would hold an estimated 1.2 million at least, more if the Baltic states and Ukraine are taken into consideration. It is amazing why a train from Greece would head to Malkinia first, unless there was an urgent need for workers across the borders. In mid July 1942 Greek jews were registered, as many as 3,500 Jewish men were drafted into labor battalions by Organization Todt; Todt and Schmelt had a presence in Ostland. However, the Salonika Jews were deported at a different time. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 21, 2021 10:45:47 GMT
Evidence of mass transports to TII. The Warsaw shuttle train document, August 1942, recording transport 548 to Treblinka, which returned empty; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram#/media/File:Ostbahn_Krakau_shuttle_train_Warschau-Treblinka.jpgThe Ganzenmuller Letters. The first was sent by the head of the German railways in July 1942, reporting daily trains of 5000 people from Warsaw to Treblinka, as well as referencing transports to Belzec and Sobibor; www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ganzenmueller2.jpgThere is a reply, thanking Ganzenmuller for his July report of daily trains taking 5000 people daily to Treblinka www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ganzenmueller4.jpg The Hofle Telegram recording the totals of arrivals at TII, as well as Belzec, Sobibor and Majdanek, the camps abbreviated to T, B, S and L. www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/holocaust/hoefle-telegram/The Dannecker Report on a transport of 2,404 Jews in March 1943, from Skopje, final destination Treblinka; www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/communities/monastir/pdf/german-doc.pdfThe Stroop Report of transports to TII during the closure of the Warsaw ghetto; www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-stroop-report-may-1943"Of the total of 56,065 Jews caught, about 7,000 were exterminated within the former Ghetto in the course of the large-scale action, and 6,929 by transporting them to T.II, which means 14,000 Jews were exterminated altogether." The Treblinka Timeline, of transports from ghettos as they were being closed down, to TII; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka_extermination_campThe records found at numerous ghettos, of transports to TII, is how historians know that was the destination of those Jews, as the ghettos were being closed. The numerous documents are evidence to prove that TII was the destination of almost daily mass transports. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 21, 2021 15:50:51 GMT
Evidence of mass transports to TII. The Warsaw shuttle train document, August 1942, recording transport 548 to Treblinka, which returned empty; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram#/media/File:Ostbahn_Krakau_shuttle_train_Warschau-Treblinka.jpgThe Ganzenmuller Letters. The first was sent by the head of the German railways in July 1942, reporting daily trains of 5000 people from Warsaw to Treblinka, as well as referencing transports to Belzec and Sobibor; www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ganzenmueller2.jpgThere is a reply, thanking Ganzenmuller for his July report of daily trains taking 5000 people daily to Treblinka www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ganzenmueller4.jpg The Hofle Telegram recording the totals of arrivals at TII, as well as Belzec, Sobibor and Majdanek, the camps abbreviated to T, B, S and L. www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/holocaust/hoefle-telegram/The Dannecker Report on a transport of 2,404 Jews in March 1943, from Skopje, final destination Treblinka; www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/communities/monastir/pdf/german-doc.pdfThe Stroop Report of transports to TII during the closure of the Warsaw ghetto; www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-stroop-report-may-1943"Of the total of 56,065 Jews caught, about 7,000 were exterminated within the former Ghetto in the course of the large-scale action, and 6,929 by transporting them to T.II, which means 14,000 Jews were exterminated altogether." The Treblinka Timeline, of transports from ghettos as they were being closed down, to TII; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka_extermination_campThe records found at numerous ghettos, of transports to TII, is how historians know that was the destination of those Jews, as the ghettos were being closed. The numerous documents are evidence to prove that TII was the destination of almost daily mass transports. The only source that specifies T-II is Stroop, and he sent only a very small minority of captured Jews to T-II meaning he sent the vast majority somewhere else. "Treblinka" is a term with many meanings, perhaps some are still unknown to us now. Perhaps it is a general reference to the administrative region or to the SS-Sonderkommando Treblinka, which was not the name of T-II contrary to the claims of the orthodox narrative. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 21, 2021 16:07:08 GMT
There were two camps named Treblinka. TI was a labour camp, primarily for workers at the quarry next to it. TII was a small camp on the line leading to TI.
All the witnesses who worked at TII said it was a death camp. All the evidence relating to TI, has it as a labour camp. All the Polish railway workers who worked in the area, understood TII to be a death camp and it was the camp that received the bulk of the regular mass transports. The organisation of AR was not responsible for building TI the labour camp and running the quarry, so AR references are to TII. Add that to Stroop's report about mass transports from Warsaw to TII and the other documents that recorded mass transports from Warsaw to Treblinka and it is evidenced to prove TII is the small camp on the spur and it received the bulk of the mass transports.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 21, 2021 16:22:04 GMT
There was also a station named Treblinka, and a village named Treblinka, and an SS and Police unit named SS-Sonderkommando Treblinka. So the notion that Hoefle's "T" means every single number stepped foot in TII is a giant leap that's not supported by evidence. When Stroop meant T-II he wrote T-II, unlike the other sources that mention "Treblinka" or "T".
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Post by Nessie on Nov 21, 2021 16:30:37 GMT
There was also a station named Treblinka, and a village named Treblinka, and an SS and Police unit named SS-Sonderkommando Treblinka. So the notion that Hoefle's "T" means every single number stepped foot in TII is a giant leap that's not supported by evidence. When Stroop meant T-II he wrote T-II, unlike the other sources that mention "Treblinka" or "T". No witness claims the trains unloaded at Treblinka station, Treblinka village or anywhere other than TII, so that camp as the destination of the regular mass transports as the ghettos were being emptied, is supported by evidence. AR was separate from the labour camp and quarry, so any AR reference of Jews being sent to Treblinka, is supported by other evidence to be TII.
You are making unevidenced giant leaps, as you insinuate the ghettos were emptied to Treblinka village, station or anywhere else in that area, as part of AR.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Nov 23, 2021 18:39:18 GMT
No witness claims the trains unloaded at Treblinka station, Treblinka village or anywhere other than TII, so that camp as the destination of the regular mass transports as the ghettos were being emptied, is supported by evidence. AR was separate from the labour camp and quarry, so any AR reference of Jews being sent to Treblinka, is supported by other evidence to be TII. You are making unevidenced giant leaps, as you insinuate the ghettos were emptied to Treblinka village, station or anywhere else in that area, as part of AR. From this statement one can assume the prisoners at the Quarry (TI) were taken there by horse and cart. The Warsaw Judenrat, July 1942, tells the world that at the start of the Warsaw evacuations a second transport left the Warsaw ghetto (at the end of July 1942, during the first week of the "great transport" of the Jews of this ghetto to the death camp of Treblinka). From that information 1,413 workers were sent from the ghetto: 413 to a work camp in the Lublin District and 1,000 to Luftgaukommando Moskau (headquartered in Smolensk), and to Minsk (see the Report of the Warsaw Judenrat, July 1942). It turns out, in fact, that the latter group was not sent to Minsk but to Bobruysk. Thus, two transports of approximately 1,400 Jews were sent to Bobruysk from the Warsaw ghetto. This was the first week of the "death trains". C. Gerlach (Kalkulierte Morde, op. cit., pp. 762-763) says: It seems the Term Treblinka was the nearest town of departure from the Reich where the SS had a presence for statistical purposes; this does not imply disembarkation. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 30, 2021 0:56:24 GMT
From various posts: The above ignores that Malkinia is also recorded as the destination for many of these transports, not Treblinka station. A third alternative is that trains departed from both Malkinia and Treblinka station to the "T-I/T-II" camps. "Used when there were two or more localities with the same name and the specific locality could not be determined." They are not sure which Treblinka camp. Nessie may keep the above post of his in mind when assuming mass transports to Treblinka went to TII camp. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 13:03:36 GMT
I am not assuming mass transports to TII. Mass transports to the camp on the spur leading to the TI labour camp and quarry are evidenced by
- those who worked inside TII
- Polish rail workers
- AR and other documents
It is the revisionists who are making assumptions they cannot back with evidence.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Nov 30, 2021 17:51:39 GMT
I am not assuming mass transports to TII. Mass transports to the camp on the spur leading to the TI labour camp and quarry are evidenced by - those who worked inside TII - Polish rail workers - AR and other documents The people leave in exactly the same way for the most part. The Farm Boy Olszuk mentioned transports. No doubt rocks had to leave the quarry, one can assume they went on those tracks. There were two camps presumably so people obviously would come and go. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 19:00:30 GMT
I am not assuming mass transports to TII. Mass transports to the camp on the spur leading to the TI labour camp and quarry are evidenced by - those who worked inside TII - Polish rail workers - AR and other documents The people leave in exactly the same way for the most part. The Farm Boy Olszuk mentioned transports. No doubt rocks had to leave the quarry, one can assume they went on those tracks. There were two camps presumably so people obviously would come and go. Yet, despite the best efforts of Faurisson, Mattogno, Kues, Hunt et al. and all their research, no evidence has been found. Either they are utterly inept, or there is no evidence, because it did not happen. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Nov 30, 2021 19:29:15 GMT
Yet, despite the best efforts of Faurisson, Mattogno, Kues, Hunt et al. and all their research, no evidence has been found. Either they are utterly inept, or there is no evidence, because it did not happen. The dearth of such evidence to the contrary and available evidence to support the allegations is probably entirely due to Soviet interdiction and interference. Turnagain has shown that about 11 thousand people left TII (from memory you both agreed); this is just the evidence the Soviets did not manage to obscure. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 19:37:51 GMT
Yet, despite the best efforts of Faurisson, Mattogno, Kues, Hunt et al. and all their research, no evidence has been found. Either they are utterly inept, or there is no evidence, because it did not happen. The dearth of such evidence to the contrary and available evidence to support the allegations is probably entirely due to Soviet interdiction and interference. Turnagain has shown that about 11 thousand people left TII (from memory you both agreed); this is just the evidence the Soviets did not manage to obscure. Or, it is because there were no regular mass transports. The SU was in no way able to administer such a huge hoax. They could barely manage Katyn.
Turnagain has shown nothing. He has tried to pass off Eric Hunt's debunked claims, which I have shown him to be evidence of some limited worker selections.
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