nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 19:14:29 GMT
Where is your evidence the Jews from Warsaw were dropped off prior to the trains arriving at TII? Where is your evidence only property arrived at TII? Just asking for evidence without any addition of content is basically trolling. I am sure it will appear when the information which is substantial is collated and the contradictions sorted out. It is obvious that not only property arrived at TII which had a camp muster of several thousand, the inmates had to get there somehow. I strongly suspect they were the last dregs of the passengers on the transports arriving from Warsaw or from Siedlce way. Please show that passengers did not get off at Malkinia or the other stopping points or you may show that people boarded the trains at those locations. If so you will need to delve into the Malkinia transit camp and labour camp and sort out how the people got to those destinations and when. |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 20:53:33 GMT
Fahrplanordnung 548 states; "From August 6, 1942, until further notice, a special train with resettlers will run daily from Warsaw Danz Bf to Treblinka Leerzug back as follows" It says nothing about dropping people off on the way. Here is an entry regarding the arrival of transports from the group collating the Jewish Labour camps. I accept that it does not mention Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 or 548. However, a glance at Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 shows that Skarลผysko-Kamienna is the next train stop down from Kielce which had 8 labour camps. Wiki states: The Radom district had 3 camps, those being at Sedziszow; this is the starting point of Fahrplananordnung Nr 587. Sedziszow Labour camp for Jews, the starting location on Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 closed in late 42 at about the same time as the Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 document dated 23 September 1942 There is no mention of Treblinka being the final destination from Sedziszow Labour Camp; the Jews in Skarzyksko were sent to Buchenwald and elsewhere at wars end. this is another version of the end: It is clear these people were shot while trying to escape; no surprises here. Nessie agree that there were transports at this time: |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 22:55:46 GMT
Fahrplananordnung 594 However, researchers have shown that the Ghetto was closed in 1941 a year before the transportations to Treblinka as in F 594. Here is what the researchers say about the ghetto: According to the German researchers there were 7 Forced Labour Camps for Jews in Czestochowa all working for HSAG making munitions. One closed in 1944 while the other 6 closed in 1945. One camp No 2621 opened 22 September 1942 the same day as the ghetto was liquidated above. Memory of Treblinka give the following timeline. The issue is that F 594 cannot be found so the route can be found in another document: Fahrplananordnung 567 dated 6 May 1943 from Tschenstochau (Czestochowa) to Treblinka. This will give the stops. Lets examine the stops from Tschenstochau/Czestochowa - Treblinka - Tschenstochau... 7 camps Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden
- Petrikau/Piotrkรณw (Piotrkรณw Trybunalski)... 4 camps Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden
- Skierniewice/ Czerniewice...
- Pruezkow...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden..opened 1941, railway workshop
- Warsaw...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden...3 camps
- Abzw (Abzweig= junction.) Antoninow
- Rembertow
- Abzweig Zielenka
- Tluszcz
- Malkinia...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden/ transit
- Treblinka...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden
The original document F 567 implied a non stop trip from Czestochowa to Treblinka with the assumption all Jews on the transport went to a single destination with no return. On the 6 May 1943 another document F 567 taking the identical route; this time the stops were shown. En route there were 9 significant labour camps, ( 17 camps all up), each transport stopped for a while at those camps; this suggests a different story to that promulgated as a death train. It is noted that the trip from Malkinia to Treblinka took 8 minutes; it is possible for this to be done if most of the wagons had been removed as being empty they were dead weight. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 7, 2022 7:47:22 GMT
Where is your evidence the Jews from Warsaw were dropped off prior to the trains arriving at TII? Where is your evidence only property arrived at TII? Just asking for evidence without any addition of content is basically trolling. I am sure it will appear when the information which is substantial is collated and the contradictions sorted out. It is obvious that not only property arrived at TII which had a camp muster of several thousand, the inmates had to get there somehow. I strongly suspect they were the last dregs of the passengers on the transports arriving from Warsaw or from Siedlce way. Please show that passengers did not get off at Malkinia or the other stopping points or you may show that people boarded the trains at those locations. If so you will need to delve into the Malkinia transit camp and labour camp and sort out how the people got to those destinations and when. Your claim is people got off the transports at the places listed in the Fahrplanordnungs. It is standard for the claimant to evidence their claim. You are trying to get me to do your work for you. |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 7, 2022 8:25:03 GMT
Your claim is people got off the transports at the places listed in the Fahrplanordnungs. It is standard for the claimant to evidence their claim. You are trying to get me to do your work for you. I will let the readers decide for them selves why trains from Labour camps going to a plethora of other labour camps en route stop on the way. I should imagine that the deaths in one camp by say TNT poisoning are balanced by new inmates; that is work in progress. The pieces are fitting in better than your scenario  . |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 9, 2022 22:30:19 GMT
It is noted that the Fahrplanordnung documents show the trains stopping at identical locations. Some documents are mentioned with no physical copies found; they are rare indeed. Linking to Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 one can see that Skarzysko was the next train stop from Kielce. People were transferred from Kielce to Skarzysko as evidenced below. In the same document there is a report of many Jews escaping from the camps. This is probably true of most Labour camps Skarลผysko-Kamienna and Tschenstochau are both on the Fahrplananordnung Nr 567 and 587. It is clear that there was extensive movement between the camps. |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 10, 2022 0:19:06 GMT
Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 The above image is for Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 ( Timetable arrangements 587 ) sections 5 & 6 describing the travel to Treblinka. The names of the locations are hard to read but I will rewrite them below with any known information. The camps mentioned are "labour camps for Jews". - Szydlowiec aka Szydlow...opened 1940..men..road construction
- Radom...2 camps...opened 1941..closed 1944
- Deblin Gbf (Gรผterbahnhof...freight station)..6 camps...runways and train tracks
- Lukow...
- Siedlce...6 camps
- Treblinka
This journey deals with 16 labour camps for Jews. Then there is a return journey to Kozienice - Treblinka
- Siedlce...6 camps
- Lukow
- Devlin obf...6 camps
- Barowiec
- Kozienice..2 camps
It seems that the timetable arrangements are going from Labour camp to Labour camp, not just in this journey but in the others mentioned as well. Ghettos are not being stopped at; this is clear when the Deblin airfield is specifically mentioned as a stopping point. It appears that workers were leaving the Treblinka camps with worker movement both ways. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 20, 2022 7:38:05 GMT
It is noted that the Fahrplanordnung documents show the trains stopping at identical locations. Some documents are mentioned with no physical copies found; they are rare indeed. Linking to Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 one can see that Skarzysko was the next train stop from Kielce. People were transferred from Kielce to Skarzysko as evidenced below. In the same document there is a report of many Jews escaping from the camps. This is probably true of most Labour camps TII closed autumn 1943. Where is your evidence of mass transports back out of the camp to other camps in Poland? He was never sent to, or was ever at TII, he believes his family were sent there. She was never sent to or was at TII. It is not clear why you think Arthur K and Goldlist are witnesses to the transports to TII. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 20, 2022 7:39:37 GMT
Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 The above image is for Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 ( Timetable arrangements 587 ) sections 5 & 6 describing the travel to Treblinka. The names of the locations are hard to read but I will rewrite them below with any known information. The camps mentioned are "labour camps for Jews". - Szydlowiec aka Szydlow...opened 1940..men..road construction
- Radom...2 camps...opened 1941..closed 1944
- Deblin obf (Oberpfaffenhofen or airport)..6 camps...runways and train tracks
- Lukow...
- Siedlce...6 camps
- Treblinka
This journey deals with 16 labour camps for Jews. Then there is a return journey to Kozienice - Treblinka
- Siedlce...6 camps
- Lukow
- Devlin obf...6 camps
- Barowiec
- Kozienice..2 camps
It seems that the timetable arrangements are going from Labour camp to Labour camp, not just in this journey but in the others mentioned as well. Ghettos are not being stopped at; this is clear when the Deblin airfield is specifically mentioned as a stopping point. It appears that workers were leaving the Treblinka camps with worker movement both ways. It is evidenced the transports went both ways from the Fahrplanordnungs, it is not evidenced people got off the trains at the stops on the way to or from TII. |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 20, 2022 7:45:09 GMT
TII closed autumn 1943. Where is your evidence of mass transports back out of the camp to other camps in Poland? There is no need, they, the majority of Jews never arrived at TII in the first place. Treblinka was the last stop in a long series of labour camps as evidenced above. Most of the Jews disembarked at the prior stops, which is why the train stopped for so long at those locations. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 20, 2022 7:55:11 GMT
TII closed autumn 1943. Where is your evidence of mass transports back out of the camp to other camps in Poland? There is no need, they, the majority of Jews never arrived at TII in the first place. Treblinka was the last stop in a long series of labour camps as evidenced above. Most of the Jews disembarked at the prior stops, which is why the train stopped for so long at those locations. You have not evidenced that is what happened, for a start, you have no witnesses who were on the transports to that happening. Instead, all the witnesses speak to being kept on the trains until they got the AR camps. |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 20, 2022 8:03:50 GMT
Instead, all the witnesses speak to being kept on the trains until they got the AR camps. of course they were the ones for the final destination. The camps on the way had thousands who got of the transports en route. The guards are not going to let the people going to TI or whatever, to go walkies at Malkinia. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 20, 2022 8:11:58 GMT
Instead, all the witnesses speak to being kept on the trains until they got the AR camps. of course they were the ones for the final destination. The camps on the way had thousands who got of the transports en route. The guards are not going to let the people going to TI or whatever, to go walkies at Malkinia. Where are the witnesses to the thousands who you claim got off the transports en route? |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 20, 2022 8:19:06 GMT
of course they were the ones for the final destination. The camps on the way had thousands who got of the transports en route. The guards are not going to let the people going to TI or whatever, to go walkies at Malkinia. Where are the witnesses to the thousands who you claim got off the transports en route? The fact that the camps at those places, those labour camps were en-route and individuals mentioned they relocated from one camp to another. Not on those specific train schedules but at other times. I really doubt if the transportees knew what train schedule they were on. It would seem that if all the people on a large transport were to be sent to a single destination there would be little need to stop at labour camps on the way. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 20, 2022 10:30:13 GMT
Where are the witnesses to the thousands who you claim got off the transports en route? The fact that the camps at those places, those labour camps were en-route and individuals mentioned they relocated from one camp to another. Not on those specific train schedules but at other times. I really doubt if the transportees knew what train schedule they were on. It would seem that if all the people on a large transport were to be sent to a single destination there would be little need to stop at labour camps on the way.
Prove, with dates and locations that tally with the AR camp transports, that people on those transports left and went to camps en route to the AR camps.
For example, witness A states he was on a transport from the Warsaw ghetto in July 1942 that was to go to TII, but he got off at a stop before that and went to a different camp.
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