nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 2:28:04 GMT
That's a good point. Hilberg says the trains proceeded with "agonizing slowness towards Treblinka." As if they just stopped the trains at these destinations to torture the passengers. Not even acknowledging the likelihood that passengers would disembark where the train has stopped. After the train sat in Malkinia for some time, and then went to "Treblinka", how many passengers were left on board? Impossible to say. It may have been completely empty of passengers and only full of luggage and property left behind. F587 stopped at Labour camps some 25 of them before arriving at Treblinka I and II; these camps were working until 44. It is likely that the plundering occurred at these camps and the goods transferred on like you said. There would also be some inmates for TI and II, but maybe a hundred. In fairness to Hillberg the existence of these camps is recently known. The train did not stop at any ghetto which is important. The starting point of the journey, "Sฤdziszรณw" was also a labour camp still in operation 1944; in fact it was three camps: - Opened 17 August 1944, for men. Industrial work.
- Opened 1940, closed late 1942. Women
- Opened late 1940, closed early 1943. Men, "transferred" to the Skarzysko forced labor camp for Jews Railway construction, road construction, loading of wood
No mention of Jews being sent to Treblinka even though a transport (for jews)to Treblinka started from there. Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 Skarลผysko-Kamienna1939-1945 |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 7:46:51 GMT
That's a good point. Hilberg says the trains proceeded with "agonizing slowness towards Treblinka." As if they just stopped the trains at these destinations to torture the passengers. Not even acknowledging the likelihood that passengers would disembark where the train has stopped. After the train sat in Malkinia for some time, and then went to "Treblinka", how many passengers were left on board? Impossible to say. It may have been completely empty of passengers and only full of luggage and property left behind.
It is possible to say what is evidenced and what is not. The evidence, from all the people on the trains, is that they were put into the boxcars at the ghettos and left there until their arrival at TII. On arriving, the evidence from those witnesses and every single witness who worked inside TII, is that they were taken off the trains, taken to barracks where they had all their property stolen from them and naked, they were driven into gas chambers. The corpses were buried and the stolen property taken to Majdanek. Occasionally there was a selection of workers, who mostly also went to Majdanek.
There is no evidence the trains stopped, let people off and only property arrived at TII. That would mean the Nazis are now repopulating the General Government with the Jews they had cleared to the ghettos. Why would they do that? The Jews were enemies.
That you cannot identify a single witness who states otherwise and backs up your hypothesis about what happened, should tell you your hypothesis is wrong. It is wrong to believe in what is not evidenced, over what is evidenced, even when unhappy about what is evidenced. After decades of evidence gathering, the chances of any evidence being found that supports your hypothesis is nil.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 8:00:57 GMT
It is possible to say what is evidenced and what is not. The evidence, from all the people on the trains, is that they were put into the boxcars at the ghettos and left there until their arrival at TII. On arriving, the evidence from those witnesses and every single witness who worked inside TII, is that they were taken off the trains, taken to barracks where they had all their property stolen from them and naked, they were driven into gas chambers. The corpses were buried and the stolen property taken to Majdanek. Occasionally there was a selection of workers, who mostly also went to Majdanek.
There is no evidence the trains stopped, let people off and only property arrived at TII. That would mean the Nazis are now repopulating the General Government with the Jews they had cleared to the ghettos. Why would they do that? The Jews were enemies.
That you cannot identify a single witness who states otherwise and backs up your hypothesis about what happened, should tell you your hypothesis is wrong. It is wrong to believe in what is not evidenced, over what is evidenced, even when unhappy about what is evidenced. After decades of evidence gathering, the chances of any evidence being found that supports your hypothesis is nil.
The people who got off at one of the labour camp stops had no idea they were on a futuristic death camp train; only those who were destined for the Treblinka area knew on arrival, they had arrived at Treblinka. It is a fact that the starting point, all the stops and the end point were all Labour camps for transports described; that is a fact not a hypothesis. None of those stops were ghettos. The case is strong and the most logical. Fahrplananordnung 587 and 548 both describe transport trains to labour camps en route. There may have been mass extermination at Treblinka II but the Fahrplananordnung documents above tell a different story. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 8:17:51 GMT
It is possible to say what is evidenced and what is not. The evidence, from all the people on the trains, is that they were put into the boxcars at the ghettos and left there until their arrival at TII. On arriving, the evidence from those witnesses and every single witness who worked inside TII, is that they were taken off the trains, taken to barracks where they had all their property stolen from them and naked, they were driven into gas chambers. The corpses were buried and the stolen property taken to Majdanek. Occasionally there was a selection of workers, who mostly also went to Majdanek.
There is no evidence the trains stopped, let people off and only property arrived at TII. That would mean the Nazis are now repopulating the General Government with the Jews they had cleared to the ghettos. Why would they do that? The Jews were enemies.
That you cannot identify a single witness who states otherwise and backs up your hypothesis about what happened, should tell you your hypothesis is wrong. It is wrong to believe in what is not evidenced, over what is evidenced, even when unhappy about what is evidenced. After decades of evidence gathering, the chances of any evidence being found that supports your hypothesis is nil.
The people who got off at one of the labour camp stops had no idea they were on a futuristic death camp train; only those who were destined for the Treblinka area knew on arrival, they had arrived at Treblinka. It is a fact that the starting point, all the stops and the end point were all Labour camps for transports described; that is a fact not a hypothesis. None of those stops were ghettos. The case is strong and the most logical. Fahrplananordnung 587 and 548 both describe transport trains to labour camps en route. There may have been mass extermination at Treblinka II but the Fahrplananordnung documents above tell a different story. How is your claim of the trains were dropping off Jews at the places en route to Treblinka strong, when there is no evidence that happened? |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 8:24:19 GMT
Fahrplanordnung 548 states;
"Ab. 6 August 1942 verkehrt bis auf weiteres taglich noch ein Sonderzug mit Umsiedelern von Warschau Danz Bf nach und Treblinka Leerzug zuruck wie folgt"
That translates as;
"From August 6, 1942, until further notice, a special train with resettlers will run daily from Warsaw Danz Bf to Treblinka Leerzug back as follows"
It says nothing about dropping people off on the way.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 8:34:19 GMT
Fahrplanordnung 548 states; "Ab. 6 August 1942 verkehrt bis auf weiteres taglich noch ein Sonderzug mit Umsiedelern von Warschau Danz Bf nach und Treblinka Leerzug zuruck wie folgt" That translates as; "From August 6, 1942, until further notice, a special train with resettlers will run daily from Warsaw Danz Bf to Treblinka Leerzug back as follows" It says nothing about dropping people off on the way. That is the general route of the train, there is no doubt about the final destination. It is just that every single stop en route is a labour camp for Jews, most working as such until 44. Some camps had 8000 Jews; there is evidence from these camps they were transported by means unknown to other labour camps and Buchenwald konzentrationslager towards the wars end. There were over 1200 such Labour camps in Poland alone as previously discussed. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Oct 6, 2022 8:37:30 GMT
LOL! Nessie calls the fantasies of his known liars "evidence". That's a good 'un, a real hoot.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 8:38:15 GMT
Fahrplanordnung 548 states; "Ab. 6 August 1942 verkehrt bis auf weiteres taglich noch ein Sonderzug mit Umsiedelern von Warschau Danz Bf nach und Treblinka Leerzug zuruck wie folgt" That translates as; "From August 6, 1942, until further notice, a special train with resettlers will run daily from Warsaw Danz Bf to Treblinka Leerzug back as follows" It says nothing about dropping people off on the way. That is the general route of the train, there is no doubt about the final destination. It is just that every single stop en route is a labour camp for Jews, most working as such until 44. Some camps had 8000 Jews; there is evidence from these camps they were transported by means unknown to other labour camps and Buchenwald konzentrationslager towards the wars end. There were over 1200 such Labour camps in Poland alone as previously discussed.
Start with Tluszcz and Malkinia, the two places on the Warsaw shuttle train record and show those two place filling up with c200,000 Warsaw Jews in the last week of July and first three weeks of August 1942.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 8:54:54 GMT
Start with Tluszcz and Malkinia, the two places on the Warsaw shuttle train record and show those two place filling up with c200,000 Warsaw Jews in the last week of July and first three weeks of August 1942. Tluszcz was a ghetto which was liquidated prior to August 42; this is close to two labour camps at Ostrowiec for men and women. (Hermann Goering Works; Jaeger company, brick factory; Mendi compan; Elin company, Vienna; Ostrowiec Blast Furnace AG). The Malkinia labour camp opened in 40 involved with fastening work. Malkinia surrounds a large number of various other labour camps. There is really no need to go to Malkinia if inmates did not need to get off. 200 thousand could easily be dispersed to the nearby camps. to the Malkinia Transit camp and then to the Labour camps in Ostland/Ukraine. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Oct 6, 2022 14:04:57 GMT
There is no evidence the trains stopped, let people off and only property arrived at TII. That would mean the Nazis are now repopulating the General Government with the Jews they had cleared to the ghettos. Why would they do that? The Jews were enemies.
The ghettoes were ticking timebombs. They were hygienic bioweapons, they contained substantial wealth and industry the Germans wanted, and they were major security concerns. Himmler stated as much. These Jews being "deported" from the ghettos to one of the thousands of camps in GG would still be regarded as "deported" according to German statistics. This is verified at Auschwitz, where deportees who remained in Auschwitz for work were still counted as "deported." |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 14:19:30 GMT
Start with Tluszcz and Malkinia, the two places on the Warsaw shuttle train record and show those two place filling up with c200,000 Warsaw Jews in the last week of July and first three weeks of August 1942. Tluszcz was a ghetto which was liquidated prior to August 42; this is close to two labour camps at Ostrowiec for men and women. (Hermann Goering Works; Jaeger company, brick factory; Mendi compan; Elin company, Vienna; Ostrowiec Blast Furnace AG). The Malkinia labour camp opened in 40 involved with fastening work. Malkinia surrounds a large number of various other labour camps. There is really no need to go to Malkinia if inmates did not need to get off. 200 thousand could easily be dispersed to the nearby camps. to the Malkinia Transit camp and then to the Labour camps in Ostland/Ukraine.
That's the claim, where is the evidence?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 14:23:58 GMT
There is no evidence the trains stopped, let people off and only property arrived at TII. That would mean the Nazis are now repopulating the General Government with the Jews they had cleared to the ghettos. Why would they do that? The Jews were enemies.
The ghettoes were ticking timebombs. They were hygienic bioweapons, they contained substantial wealth and industry the Germans wanted, and they were major security concerns. Himmler stated as much. These Jews being "deported" from the ghettos to one of the thousands of camps in GG would still be regarded as "deported" according to German statistics. This is verified at Auschwitz, where deportees who remained in Auschwitz for work were still counted as "deported." You will have no problem evidencing that huge movement of people from Nazi records and witnesses. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Oct 6, 2022 14:58:46 GMT
I remember seeing a written order in a document for the deportation trains INTO general government to keep all the luggage of the deportees on the train for the train's final destination. Something about the destination of the transport claiming that property was removed from the transport at the various previous stops, whereas the property was supposed to remain on the train until its destination (even though the passengers were dropped off at a sorting point).
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Post by ๐ธ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Oct 6, 2022 18:26:48 GMT
Off topic posts regarding the alleged theft of property have been moved and may be continued here: theft of property |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 6, 2022 18:41:52 GMT
I remember seeing a written order in a document for the deportation trains INTO general government to keep all the luggage of the deportees on the train for the train's final destination. Something about the destination of the transport claiming that property was removed from the transport at the various previous stops, whereas the property was supposed to remain on the train until its destination (even though the passengers were dropped off at a sorting point). Where is your evidence the Jews from Warsaw were dropped off prior to the trains arriving at TII? Where is your evidence only property arrived at TII? |
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