nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 5, 2022 1:11:55 GMT
The following aerial shot 1944 may help locate these sidings.  |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Oct 5, 2022 2:05:22 GMT
PR seems to have the best handle on the location of Treblinka. Somewhere near or on the Malkinia loop. Nazgul's transit camp has no rail siding so doesn't answer the question of where the train was parked for 2 hours and 40 minutes. Wiernik's initial map of Treblinka supports the claim that the extermination camp, camp two, was located on the Malkinia loop Treblinka. PR's theory of smaller shunting trains carrying deportees to Treblinka II doesn't explain why the Germans sent some deportees east from the Malkinia Loop Treblinka but others being shuttled to Treblinka II. My theory doesn't explain why trains were being sent to Treblinka II in the first place.
The only thing known for sure is that without the train records nothing is known for sure. The lack of train records throws a monkey wrench into the works and whoever saw to them being "lost" or destroyed knew precisely what they were doing. The odds of those records being lost by happenstance is just about nil. It certainly opens Treblinka up to the flim-flam accusation that it was an extermination camp.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 7:42:26 GMT
Nessie wrote: The actual German records make it plain that the Treblinka located about a mile from Malkinia was the final destination of the fahrplanaordnung trains. Nessie can fantasize whatever he wishes about "shuntings", the transfer of Jews from Treblinka to Treblinka II, but as Prudent Regret has said, those records of trains arriving at and leaving Treblinka II no longer exist. There are multiple witnesses to splitting and shunting the train into TII.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 7:43:29 GMT
Prudent Regret wrote: Here is a pure, blue sky speculation. Nothing whatsoever to back it up. The fahrplanaordnung trains were dedicated to transporting Jews. Those trains were sent directly to the Treblinka located about a mile from Malkinia. However, there were other trains that carried incidental passengers and dropped the deportees off at Treblinka II for temporary housing and sorting. Your opinion. A possibility or clownworld? According to you the Nazis transported Jews to a place about a mile from Malkinia. Then what? Show your evidence. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 7:46:24 GMT
Prudent Regret wrote: Here is a pure, blue sky speculation. Nothing whatsoever to back it up. The fahrplanaordnung trains were dedicated to transporting Jews. Those trains were sent directly to the Treblinka located about a mile from Malkinia. However, there were other trains that carried incidental passengers and dropped the deportees off at Treblinka II for temporary housing and sorting. Your opinion. A possibility or clownworld? Even according to official historiography, it was a "smaller shunting engine" and not the original engine that supposedly brought the carts to TII. So already, we are talking about two separate trains. I think the separate train, that "smaller shunting engine" was part of an industrial railway that connected the various quarries and industrial centers throughout the area (including TII) to Malkinia. TI would use this local industrial train for hauling gravel and transporting prisoners. TII would use it for transporting goods and passengers to TI/TII. But witnesses in the area would see the fahrplanaordnung trains arrive at Malkinia / "Treblinka." And then they would also see this separate train go from Malkinia to TI/TII. So it's not hard to see how this story took hold. The whole "shunting" aspect of TII has always been very dubious and clearly intended to blur the fact we are talking about a different train going to/from TI/II than arrived at Malkinia / "Treblinka." In any case, the notion that all the passenger carts of these fahrplanaordnung trains were "shunted" to TII is not supported by transport records. It was probably an entirely different train with its own carts and own engine. That the Fahrplanordnung records the train arriving at Treblinka 7 minutes after leaving Malkinia and then spending nearly three hours there, does support the witness evidence of it being split and shunted. It may well have been a different locomotive that did the shunting. There is no evidence of different carts being used, and the witnesses do not report getting off one cart and getting onto another. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 7:52:24 GMT
PR seems to have the best handle on the location of Treblinka. Somewhere near or on the Malkinia loop. Nazgul's transit camp has no rail siding so doesn't answer the question of where the train was parked for 2 hours and 40 minutes. Wiernik's initial map of Treblinka supports the claim that the extermination camp, camp two, was located on the Malkinia loop Treblinka. PR's theory of smaller shunting trains carrying deportees to Treblinka II doesn't explain why the Germans sent some deportees east from the Malkinia Loop Treblinka but others being shuttled to Treblinka II. My theory doesn't explain why trains were being sent to Treblinka II in the first place. The only thing known for sure is that without the train records nothing is known for sure. The lack of train records throws a monkey wrench into the works and whoever saw to them being "lost" or destroyed knew precisely what they were doing. The odds of those records being lost by happenstance is just about nil. It certainly opens Treblinka up to the flim-flam accusation that it was an extermination camp. Point to the aerial photo Nazgul just posted and show where this extra Treblinka camp was located, a camp that could process hundreds of thousands of deportees, forced out of the ghettos under Action Reinhardt and then explain what that AR camp, located on the spur line to Treblinka quarry was for.
The Nazis only ever called two camps Treblinka, the labour camp and the AR camp. Some witnesses have mistaken Malinkia for Treblinka. The Nazis did not.
Every single person who worked inside TII, and Polish locals, report mass transports to TII, the camp on the spur line.
The only transports for which there are no documents, are the mass departures of Jews from Treblinka. That is explained by the evidence, they were mostly killed.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Oct 5, 2022 8:41:03 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nazgul posted another aerial photo of the Malkinia loop from 1944 that delineates the irregular quadrilateral with what appears to be the remains of some sort of intstallation in the upper right hand corner. Just as Wiernik's initial map showed.
Are you brain dead or something? The fahrplanaordnungs were written by Nazis and they unequivocally state that the final destination for the fahrplanaordnung trains was the Treblinka that was located about a mile from Malkinia.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 13:37:58 GMT
Nessie wrote: Matthes states that the rails were laid on concrete blocks not rocks. Neither does he mention the cross-meshing of heavy railroad rails and the lighter rails. Stangl makes no mention of large rocks being used as the foundation for the crematory grate and specifically states that no trolley rails were used. Nessie's claim that Matthes and Stangl corroborate Gley's account of how the crematory grate was constructed is rank bullsh!t.
They are clearly describing, using their own words, the same thing. To suggest otherwise is wrong.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 13:42:05 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nazgul posted another aerial photo of the Malkinia loop from 1944 that delineates the irregular quadrilateral with what appears to be the remains of some sort of intstallation in the upper right hand corner. Just as Wiernik's initial map showed. Are you brain dead or something? The fahrplanaordnungs were written by Nazis and they unequivocally state that the final destination for the fahrplanaordnung trains was the Treblinka that was located about a mile from Malkinia. Nazgul fitted a plan of TII, that does not match what we know was the shape of TII, onto something he saw on the aerial photo. It also looks like it was resized to fit. There is no evidence of a Treblinka camp where he locates it, no witnesses, no camp staff, nothing.
The Fahrplanordnung gives a time of arrival at where the shunting process that took the next 2 hours and 40 minutes started. There is no evidence from any witness who was on a train, that they entered a camp only 7 minutes away from Malkinia.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Oct 5, 2022 15:57:27 GMT
Nessie wrote:
No, they're not describing the same thing. To suggest otherwise is a lie.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Oct 5, 2022 16:06:24 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Sell such fantasies down the street.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 17:31:39 GMT
Nessie wrote: No, they're not describing the same thing. To suggest otherwise is a lie. OK, so describe using your own words, not their's what each of them is describing.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Oct 5, 2022 17:32:17 GMT
Nessie wrote: Sell such fantasies down the street. It is what is evidenced to have happened. People spending hours on trains, waiting to be shunted into TII. |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Oct 6, 2022 0:34:43 GMT
Nessie wrote: Sell such fantasies down the street. It is what is evidenced to have happened. People spending hours on trains, waiting to be shunted into TII. A steam train could not make it to the Treblinka station in 7 minutes For those who went to TI and TII, this occurred with smaller locomotives. The train and passengers were on a side track. Here is a photo at the Treblinka railway station.  Tracks Treblinka Station Not only does www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/ offer evidence of a Labor camps in Malkinia, which probably acted as a transit camp, six labor camps were in Siedlce. From Warsaw to Malkinia there was a ghetto in Tluszcz that was liquidated 05/01/1942 What we have is the Treblinka railway station being the final destination from Warsaw via Malkinia and Lublin via Siedlce. Siedlce has extensive shunting facilities in its rail network. Witness reports spending long times at both Malkinia and the Treblinka station which would account for the Warsaw train stopping at Malkinia. If the destination for all Treblinka passengers (TI or TII ) there would be no need for the train to go to Malkinia at all; the points could be set so the train goes from the Warsaw - Bialystok line directly to Treblinka Railway siding. This is not what happened, the train goes to Malkinia first. What for?  Fahrplanordnung Warsaw - Treblinka The document above shows a transport 6 August 1942. According to the records this transport had 10,085 passengers (58 freight cars and 2 passenger cars). This transports stops in Malkinia for 19 minutes, a place with a labour transit camp. No doubt passengers would have got off; in fact Malkinia was the centre hub of a large number of labour camps in the area. Here is a map showing the forced labor camps in the Siedlce Malkinia area. These camps would have been serviced by shuttles going from Malkinia to them no doubt using the Jews from the larger transport from Warsaw. For example "Borowen Lake" was a judenlager for men working on the Autobahn. More information is being collected on these camps as time permits. The same situation is true from the transports via Lublin, from Siedlce, many travellers would have disembarked at Siedlce. The following document needs to be examined. It is another railway timetable, this time from Sedziszow to Treblinka. Raul Hilberg on Trains, has the following to say. This seems like disinformation, as each of the towns in the document were in fact Jewish Labour camps as evidenced below. Strangely enough the timeline linked above does not have this transport with the cargo arriving at Treblinka on the date above but there are 4 earlier entries Lets us examine the places the train passed through to Treblinka as mentioned on the document. Most of these camps opened early 1942 and closed 1944. - Sฤdziszรณw...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden
- Kielce...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden...8 camps
- Skarzysko Kemienna...8000 in camp......see quote below
- Radom...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden...3 camps
- Deblin...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden...6 camps
- Lukow...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden
- Siedlce...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden...6 camps
- Treblinka...Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden...TI
When the train left Treblinka it returned to Siedlce and then went to another "Zwangsarbeitslager fรผr Juden" at Szydลowiec. These Zwangsarbeitslager camps are all mentioned in www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de and can be verified. All up the train serviced some 27 camps on the way to Treblinka, no doubt many passengers disembarking on the way. By the time it arrived at TI or TII, perhaps both it would be depleted of all its human cargo. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Oct 6, 2022 0:53:38 GMT
That's a good point. Hilberg says the trains proceeded with "agonizing slowness towards Treblinka." As if they just stopped the trains at these destinations to torture the passengers. Not even acknowledging the likelihood that passengers would disembark where the train has stopped. After the train sat in Malkinia for some time, and then went to "Treblinka", how many passengers were left on board? Impossible to say. It may have been completely empty of passengers and only full of luggage and property left behind.
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