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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 30, 2021 19:33:55 GMT
Wiernik, Rajchman and the Nazis who worked at TII all saw the gas chambers in action. The rest of the Jewish witnesses worked in the reception, sorting centre, taken property from the arrivals, cutting hair and sending them naked further into the camp. They give hearsay evidence of gassings, but their evidence from what they saw is consistent with gassings, not people being sent to get back onto trains and leave the camp. Regurgitating the old failed witnesses will not assist your cause; that is your only evidence in reality. Prudent Regret has shown what the AR system was; cutting hair and being naked is synonymous with hygiene. No doubt they were given clothes a short time later after showering. There is absolutely no reason why people could not board the train immediately before departure.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 19:46:20 GMT
Wiernik, Rajchman and the Nazis who worked at TII all saw the gas chambers in action. The rest of the Jewish witnesses worked in the reception, sorting centre, taken property from the arrivals, cutting hair and sending them naked further into the camp. They give hearsay evidence of gassings, but their evidence from what they saw is consistent with gassings, not people being sent to get back onto trains and leave the camp. Regurgitating the old failed witnesses will not assist your cause; that is your only evidence in reality. Prudent Regret has shown what the AR system was; cutting hair and being naked is synonymous with hygiene. No doubt they were given clothes a short time later after showering. There is absolutely no reason why people could not board the train immediately before departure. Prudent Regret, on another forum, was repeatedly asked to show evidence as to what happened to the people once they had been showered. He dodged every single time. That is because being stripped naked and all personal items being sorted and sent to Majdanek for sale or other use, is not consistent with a resettlement programme. If they were showered and their clothing etc deloused and then returned to them, that would be consistent with resettlement. There is no evidence that happened inside the AR camps. All the witnesses who sorted property said it was sent away, not returned to the people. For example, Abraham Krzepicki;
"we were taken to clear away the things in the left-hand barracks, where the people undressed before enterยญing the gas chamber. Here, piled up in huge mounds, were the garments, underwear, shoes and all sorts of other items left by the men, women and children who had undressed there the day beยญfore. Various amounts of cash, large and small, were also lying around on the floor. There was Polish money as well as foreign currency, securities and jewelry. It was our job to pick up the rags as they were, and to add them to the piles of clothing near the railroad tracks."
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 30, 2021 20:40:07 GMT
Prudent Regret, on another forum, was repeatedly asked to show evidence as to what happened to the people once they had been showered. He dodged every single time. That is because being stripped naked and all personal items being sorted and sent to Majdanek for sale or other use, is not consistent with a resettlement programme. We all know that no one was "resettled' though that may have been the long term intention. War tends to get in the way of good plans. Being evicted and transported east, being paid a lousy wage for hard work under shocking conditions can hardly be called "resettlement". The sexes were segregated so that no resettlement was possible. All those witnesses who mention gas chambers would have no real knowledge of such things; people were compartmentalized; they are repeating hearsay and myths as though they are facts.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Nov 30, 2021 20:46:30 GMT
I am sure that Poland in 1944 was not Utopia. Everyone was under pressure to conform at the point of a gun at that place and time. As said the statements of this person must be treated with great caution due to the likelihood of undue coercion or malice. If anyone wishes to blindly believe what is impossible nonsense, that is their choice. If Treblinka relies on Wiernik then it is on very shaky ground indeed. The story seems to be an orchestrated litany of lies. Yet you cannot produce one single credible witness to what did happen inside a camp that c860,000 people were sent to. Yes so there are no credible witnesses, and therefore since the claim that 870000 are buried there, is extraordinary, this requires extraordinary evidence - since none is forthcoming, and exterminationists deny anyone the opportunity to find out definitively , we must conclude there is no evidence of this claim.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Nov 30, 2021 20:50:03 GMT
How would they know when they are sectioned in their own part of the camp. They had little knowledge of the true workings but relied on hearsay. Wiernik, Rajchman and the Nazis who worked at TII all saw the gas chambers in action. The rest of the Jewish witnesses worked in the reception, sorting centre, taken property from the arrivals, cutting hair and sending them naked further into the camp. They give hearsay evidence of gassings, but their evidence from what they saw is consistent with gassings, not people being sent to get back onto trains and leave the camp. They certainly say they saw things, but thats about it.
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Post by mrolonzo on Nov 30, 2021 20:53:13 GMT
Prudent Regret, on another forum, was repeatedly asked to show evidence as to what happened to the people once they had been showered. He dodged every single time. That is because being stripped naked and all personal items being sorted and sent to Majdanek for sale or other use, is not consistent with a resettlement programme. We all know that no one was "resettled' though that may have been the long term intention. War tends to get in the way of good plans. Being evicted and transported east, being paid a lousy wage for hard work under shocking conditions can hardly be called "resettlement". The sexes were segregated so that no resettlement was possible. All those witnesses who mention gas chambers would have no real knowledge of such things; people were compartmentalized; they are repeating hearsay and myths as though they are facts. Absolute rubbish, head shaving, new clothes, property confiscation is clearly in accordance with re settlement.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 1, 2021 2:31:54 GMT
Nessie wrote:
If Wiernik and Rajchman both saw the gas chambers in action, why did they give such divergent accounts of how they functioned? Why the discrepancies in their descriptions of the graves and the differences between Wiernik's magic Jew barbeque and Rajchman's? Trying to convince people that they are telling the truth because they both use the words "gas chamber" is asinine.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Dec 1, 2021 6:27:53 GMT
If Wiernik and Rajchman both saw the gas chambers in action, why did they give such divergent accounts of how they functioned? Why the discrepancies in their descriptions of the graves and the differences between Wiernik's magic Jew barbeque and Rajchman's? Trying to convince people that they are telling the truth because they both use the words "gas chamber" is asinine. It might be helpful to guests and members unfamiliar with the descriptions and discrepancies to explain what they are: WiernikRajchman (Reichman)While you have a divergent view of the methods of alleged execution it is obvious that an opponent will have a convergent view in that however they died they were still gassed in gas chambers; this is a core point for him.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 1, 2021 7:19:02 GMT
Excellent summation, Velohaven. However, I don't believe that "gas chamber" are magic words or that uttering them renders all of the rest of the alleged witnesses statements or claims to be irrelevant. When there's divergent testimony between to eyewitnesses I believe that it must be reconciled. Glossing over such discrepancies with the claim that they uttered the magic words is insufficient. I simply don't believe in magic or magical incantations.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 1, 2021 7:54:39 GMT
Excellent summation, Velohaven. However, I don't believe that "gas chamber" are magic words or that uttering them renders all of the rest of the alleged witnesses statements or claims to be irrelevant. When there's divergent testimony between to eyewitnesses I believe that it must be reconciled. Glossing over such discrepancies with the claim that they uttered the magic words is insufficient. I simply don't believe in magic or magical incantations. The summation is that TII is most likely the area at Malkinia; the railway loop heading north towards Ostraleka; the Siedlce line South was further west prior to Malkinia Gorna. The Black Rider has explained this clearly here. There was also another camp at the site of the current TII, (call this Treblinka b) which is testified by Marian Olszuk and others. The reason why Treblinka township was chosen as the camp collective is because it is the midway point between the Malkinia junction camp and the Quarry camp including Treblinka b. I am beginning to suspect that Treblinka B was part of TI, a judenlager of that camp. Jews had to be separated from other inmates. Prudent Regret has shown that the railway spur was not fit for trains but only for horse drawn rail carts. There is other information indicating that this rail was a "trolley" line. Just south of the Quarry camps (12 km) was Kosow Podlaski (now Kosow Lascki) also classified as an extermination camp. It seems every camp in Poland near the Bug river was classified as an extermination camp, even those in Latvia. The first map Wiernik drew fits in the Yad Vashem opinion that Treblinka Extermination camp was at the Malkinia loop; were these men at the same camp? Did they meet each other?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2021 10:52:40 GMT
Yet you cannot produce one single credible witness to what did happen inside a camp that c860,000 people were sent to. Yes so there are no credible witnesses, and therefore since the claim that 870000 are buried there, is extraordinary, this requires extraordinary evidence - since none is forthcoming, and exterminationists deny anyone the opportunity to find out definitively , we must conclude there is no evidence of this claim. No, the logical conclusion is merely that you dispute the evidence, not that there is no evidence. Evidence does not magically vanish, just because you dispute it.
The same applies to revisionist claims that TII was a transit camp. That requires evidencing and in this case, there really is no evidence. No one inside TII describes a transit camp. The Polish rail workers describe mass arrivals and no mass departures. Documents record mass arrivals and no mass departures. There is no evidence of regular mass departures.
Disputed evidence and no evidence are very different.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2021 10:54:25 GMT
Wiernik, Rajchman and the Nazis who worked at TII all saw the gas chambers in action. The rest of the Jewish witnesses worked in the reception, sorting centre, taken property from the arrivals, cutting hair and sending them naked further into the camp. They give hearsay evidence of gassings, but their evidence from what they saw is consistent with gassings, not people being sent to get back onto trains and leave the camp. They certainly say they saw things, but thats about it. There is corroborating evidence from documents, Poles who lived and worked nearby to the camp, physical finds at the camp site and from what Action Reinhardt involved.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2021 10:57:21 GMT
We all know that no one was "resettled' though that may have been the long term intention. War tends to get in the way of good plans. Being evicted and transported east, being paid a lousy wage for hard work under shocking conditions can hardly be called "resettlement". The sexes were segregated so that no resettlement was possible. All those witnesses who mention gas chambers would have no real knowledge of such things; people were compartmentalized; they are repeating hearsay and myths as though they are facts. Absolute rubbish, head shaving, new clothes, property confiscation is clearly in accordance with re settlement. Please evidence the c860,000 people sent to TII were given new clothes there.
Please evidence that they did not need the underwear, glasses, walking sticks, suitcases etc that were taken from them, for resettlement. Surely those basic personal items are needed for resettlement.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 1, 2021 11:00:16 GMT
No, the logical conclusion is merely that you dispute the evidence, not that there is no evidence. Evidence does not magically vanish, just because you dispute it. The same applies to revisionist claims that TII was a transit camp. That requires evidencing and in this case, there really is no evidence. No one inside TII describes a transit camp. The Polish rail workers describe mass arrivals and no mass departures. Documents record mass arrivals and no mass departures. There is no evidence of regular mass departures. Disputed evidence and no evidence are very different. It seems this poster Nessie is stumbling in waters well over his head. The "mantra" of evidencing repeats itself with no qualification of value. He has no idea which camp he is talking about; the Treblinka camps are more than he thinks.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2021 11:08:45 GMT
Excellent summation, Velohaven. However, I don't believe that "gas chamber" are magic words or that uttering them renders all of the rest of the alleged witnesses statements or claims to be irrelevant. When there's divergent testimony between to eyewitnesses I believe that it must be reconciled. Glossing over such discrepancies with the claim that they uttered the magic words is insufficient. I simply don't believe in magic or magical incantations. Wiernik also described people being left inside the gas chambers to suffocate.
"As I have already indicated, there was not much space in the gas chambers. People were smothered simply by overcrowding. The motor which generated the gas in the new chambers was defective, and so the helpless victims had to suffer for hours on end before they died. Satan himself could not have devised a more fiendish torture. When the chambers were opened again, many of the victims were only half dead and had to be finished off with rifle butts, bullets or powerful kicks. Often people were kept in the gas chambers overnight with the motor not turned on at all. Overcrowding and lack of air killed many of them in a very painful way."
Compare that to Rajchman as quoted above;
โThe killings were carried out either by pumping out of the air or by introduction of CO. Once, when fewer transports were arriving, the Germans conducted an experiment: They pumped out the air without introducing poison. When the doors were opened after 48 hours, we found some living people inside.โ
Rajchman thinks air was pumped out, Wiernik does not. They both agree that at times people were left inside the chambers to die. They both agree that gas was pumped in. The discrepancies are minor.
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