Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 27, 2021 17:26:11 GMT
Fine, stop trying to use Wiernik and Rajchman to prove anything about TII, since you claim they are liars. You cannot use them as evidence, if you claim they are liars. They may have become corrupted with some useful bits and pieces. Most lies have an element of truth. What did Wiernik and Rajchman say that you accept as being truthful? How did you assess their claim as being truthful?
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 27, 2021 17:36:19 GMT
They may have become corrupted with some useful bits and pieces. Most lies have an element of truth. What did Wiernik and Rajchman say that you accept as being truthful? How did you assess their claim as being truthful? This is the eternal problem when there are corrupted liars and peddlers of disinformation; I used the word "may"; his first map for instance corresponds exactly with the Warsaw Bialystok line when aligned to North on his map. This does not mean it is true but worthy of further investigation. He was a Bund member which is why his disinformation does not correspond with the Stefan Paweล Rowecki, Polish Underground attack plan; their aims were different in many respects, though both were not fans of Hitlers troops. If this man does not know where the camp he is talking about is, the rest of his testimony etc must be taken with great caution.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 27, 2021 17:40:22 GMT
What did Wiernik and Rajchman say that you accept as being truthful? How did you assess their claim as being truthful? This is the eternal problem when there are corrupted liars and peddlers of disinformation; I used the word "may"; his first map for instance corresponds exactly with the Warsaw Bialystok line when aligned to North on his map. This does not mean it is true but worthy of further investigation. He was a Bund member which is why his disinformation does not correspond with the Stefan Paweล Rowecki, Polish Underground attack plan; their aims were different in many respects, though both were not fans of Hitlers troops. If this man does not know where the camp he is talking about is, the rest of his testimony etc must be taken with great caution. It would make more sense for you to discuss the testimony of a witness you believe, than one you do not.
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 27, 2021 17:52:26 GMT
It would make more sense for you to discuss the testimony of a witness you believe, than one you do not. I am sure that Poland in 1944 was not Utopia. Everyone was under pressure to conform at the point of a gun at that place and time. As said the statements of this person must be treated with great caution due to the likelihood of undue coercion or malice. If anyone wishes to blindly believe what is impossible nonsense, that is their choice. If Treblinka relies on Wiernik then it is on very shaky ground indeed. The story seems to be an orchestrated litany of lies.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 27, 2021 18:03:08 GMT
It would make more sense for you to discuss the testimony of a witness you believe, than one you do not. I am sure that Poland in 1944 was not Utopia. Everyone was under pressure to conform at the point of a gun at that place and time. As said the statements of this person must be treated with great caution due to the likelihood of undue coercion or malice. If anyone wishes to blindly believe what is impossible nonsense, that is their choice. If Treblinka relies on Wiernik then it is on very shaky ground indeed. The story seems to be an orchestrated litany of lies. Yet you cannot produce one single credible witness to what did happen inside a camp that c860,000 people were sent to.
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 27, 2021 18:15:20 GMT
Yet you cannot produce one single credible witness to what did happen inside a camp that c860,000 people were sent to. I fail to see how this statement adds anything to the discussion. People from the outside can easily see into the camp, especially the alleged 'extermination' area as clear as a bell; they are there every day working on the fields and see nothing untoward. All they see is an empty space with no evidence of murder of even a single person. The buildings in the camp are clearly seen. One does not need to step inside the wire to witness goings on. It is a mere assumption that 860k people went to this particular place; Marian states it was just a KL for Warsaw jews, a judenlager.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 27, 2021 19:08:34 GMT
Yet you cannot produce one single credible witness to what did happen inside a camp that c860,000 people were sent to. I fail to see how this statement adds anything to the discussion. I am pointing out that Olszuck is not corroborated by any other witness, which is odd, considering the number of potential witnesses. You mean one person made a claim he could see into the camp, but his claim is not as specific as you suggest. Faurisson is not quoting Olszuck when he states "In 1942-1943, the 'extermination camp' area was practically devoid of trees or large shrubbery. As a result, the neighboring farm folk and passers-by could easily observe, through the barbed-wire fence, the prisoners and the guards as well as the various buildings of a camp that is now said to have been ultra-secret." He has speculated. No, it is evidenced by multiple documents and witnesses. Quote Olszuck claiming it was just a camp for warsaw Jews.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 29, 2021 18:09:28 GMT
I am pointing out that Olszuck is not corroborated by any other witness, which is odd, considering the number of potential witnesses. You mean one person made a claim he could see into the camp, but his claim is not as specific as you suggest. Faurisson is not quoting Olszuck when he states "In 1942-1943, the 'extermination camp' area was practically devoid of trees or large shrubbery. As a result, the neighboring farm folk and passers-by could easily observe, through the barbed-wire fence, the prisoners and the guards as well as the various buildings of a camp that is now said to have been ultra-secret." He has speculated. No, it is evidenced by multiple documents and witnesses. Quote Olszuck claiming it was just a camp for warsaw Jews. Olszuk counters that evidencing with a good dose of reality. Olszuk had property near the camp which he worked. Faurisson got his information from Marian who had no reason to lie. This can be taken as fact. There was concern that Marian would come to the attention of the "Secret Police" (Ministry of Public Security) which is why the interview was shorter than desirable. This is no doubt why others have not come forwards. Faurisson interviewed in 1988 with the Secret Police known as the Sลuลผba Bezpieczeลstwa (Security Service; the SB was responsible for the torture and execution of Catholic priest Jerzy Popieลuszko in 1984. The agency is also suspected of killing Stanisลaw Pyjas, Catholic priest Stefan Niedzielak, and is reported to have abused priest Roman Kotlarz, who died mysteriously after a beating. I am sure that dealing with dissident Treblinka deniers would take minimal effort. As Faurisson found, most people did not wish to discuss the events of that era.
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Post by Nessie on Nov 29, 2021 19:53:05 GMT
... Faurisson got his information from Marian who had no reason to lie. This can be taken as fact. He said there were mass arrivals, made no mention of mass departures and spoke about screams and a terrible smell from inside the camp, which despite his alleged good view into the camp, he does not say what caused it. He is corroborating much of what is claimed by witnesses from inside the camp and he does not evidence what its purpose was, if it was not a death camp. Copying stuff you found online without credit, is plagiarism. military-history.fandom.com/wiki/S%C5%82u%C5%BCba_Bezpiecze%C5%84stwaFaurisson had plenty of time to ask what did happen and about mass departures.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 29, 2021 20:42:18 GMT
He said there were mass arrivals, made no mention of mass departures and spoke about screams and a terrible smell from inside the camp, which despite his alleged good view into the camp, he does not say what caused it. He is corroborating much of what is claimed by witnesses from inside the camp and he does not evidence what its purpose was, if it was not a death camp. Marian did not say it was not a death camp, he simply inferred that he could clearly see into the Extermination area and the buildings inside, he did not see anything homicidal. He has not inferred what he does not know but reports truthfully what he has seen and heard (or not seen). The screams have been explained so please do not continue with this line unless there is some new material. If they are going to scream taking a shower at Belsen then they have done that everywhere. This is the power of rumor; the women thought they were going to die. Like normal people he would assume people embark the train shortly after people disembark like happens at most railway stations. There is no evidence this did not happen. The fact that Zabecki did not know this is because the trains head towards Siedlce, their original destination.
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 11:59:44 GMT
... There is no evidence this did not happen.... Every single witness, Wiernik, Rajchman et al. Nazis included who worked inside TII is evidence of no regular mass transports back out of TII. Olszuck is also evidence of that, as are all the Polish rail workers. The documentary evidence only records mass arrivals, no document records mass departures. The Warsaw shuttle train record specifically states empty trains returned, which since Warsaw accounts for a third of all transports to TII, is proof in itself a large number of trains left empty. You are only fooling yourself with your claim.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 30, 2021 18:00:30 GMT
Every single witness, Wiernik, Rajchman et al. Nazis included who worked inside TII is evidence of no regular mass transports back out of TII. Olszuck is also evidence of that, as are all the Polish rail workers. The documentary evidence only records mass arrivals, no document records mass departures. The Warsaw shuttle train record specifically states empty trains returned, which since Warsaw accounts for a third of all transports to TII, is proof in itself a large number of trains left empty. People embark and disembark at railway platforms all the time; there is nothing special about this and not worthy of noting. It is only later when a claim is made that people did not leave there is an issue. Continuing to mention the witnesses who are corrupt will not assist. Has anyone checked the documents of the other train stations and other locations towards Siedlce. There was a concentration camp a few km down the track called Kosow Podlaski, no doubt some went there; in fact there were over 650 camps in Poland they could have gone to AS WELL as Todt camps, including Schmelt workshops. This was the Scenario reported by the Sobibor workers (though some arrived by cart and left the same way). Of course empty trains return to Warsaw, no one wanted people to go back there; this does not preclude people heading down the track towards Siedlce. The trains simply return to Warsaw afterwards.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 19:02:20 GMT
Keeping this more on topic, the witnesses who worked inside the AR camps provide the answer as to why there were no mass transports back out of TII.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 30, 2021 19:25:31 GMT
Keeping this more on topic, the witnesses who worked inside the AR camps provide the answer as to why there were no mass transports back out of TII. How would they know when they are sectioned in their own part of the camp. They had little knowledge of the true workings but relied on hearsay.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 30, 2021 19:28:27 GMT
Keeping this more on topic, the witnesses who worked inside the AR camps provide the answer as to why there were no mass transports back out of TII. How would they know when they are sectioned in their own part of the camp. They had little knowledge of the true workings but relied on hearsay. Wiernik, Rajchman and the Nazis who worked at TII all saw the gas chambers in action. The rest of the Jewish witnesses worked in the reception, sorting centre, taken property from the arrivals, cutting hair and sending them naked further into the camp. They give hearsay evidence of gassings, but their evidence from what they saw is consistent with gassings, not people being sent to get back onto trains and leave the camp.
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