Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 11:28:34 GMT
Yankel Wiernik
Eliahu Rosenberg
Samuel Rajzman (trial testimony)
...They all claim chambers were used to gas people and any variation in what they saw is due to the way they chose to describe or the questions they were asked. Their evidence is the equivalent of three witnesses to a murder who all agree that a gun was used to shoot people. Anyone who provides the mentally sick imaginings and racist nonsense of Yankl Wiernick as credible, eye-witness testimony is themselves beyond contempt. His nonsense has been refuted so many times, and this disgustingly dishonest troll knows that. ..... The evidence provided by Wiernik, Rosenberg and Rajzman of mass gassings, burials and cremations is corroborated by every single other person, Jewish and Nazi who worked inside TII, along with supporting evidence from Poles who lived and worked nearby. There is also supporting evidence from documents, and the physical and archaeological evidence gathered from the camp site.
The methodology used by all academics and police, of gathering evidence, is far more reliable and credible than the revisionist methodology of thinking up excuses to doubt the witness testimony, using a series of arguments from logical fallacies.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 11:36:19 GMT
5 people per square metre (this should be the UPPER limit for standing/viewing spaces). www.gkstill.com/_Media/5-people-per-square-metre-2_med_hr.jpeg5 people can comfortably stand in one square metre. If we double that and assume 10 people could be squeezed into a square metre, that is still only 250 people in one of Wiernikโs alleged thirteen โgas chambersโ. Even if we treble that, and assume 15 people could somehow be crammed uncomfortably into the same space, that still only results in 375 people. Wiernik claimed that as many as 500 could be fitted. And the general narrative is that they thought they were going to take a shower!!!? In buildings deliberately disguised as showers. Even with reassuring stars of David above the entrance to reassure them. Yet this idiotic, dishonest troll asserts that Wiernikโs sick fable fits with that narrative and does not contradict that โeye-witnessโ consensus view. ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ You ignore that Wiernik means was just poor at estimating the size of a crowd and he has overestimated how many were gassed at a time.
The disgusing of gas chambers as showers is reported at the other AR camps, A-B and for the T4 euthanasia project.
Your arguments from incredulity are fallacies.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 8, 2021 18:16:13 GMT
Wiernik has no credibility, he was a member of the underground Bund organization with affiliations to the Home Army. To accept this man would be like the Chicago police using Al Capone as a witnesses against town gangsters.
You are well aware that the shower head myth was exploding around all sectors of every Jewish community so all of the Jews were expecting anything but water to come from shower heads. Those who saw steam coming from shower rooms thought "gas", a confirmation bias.
If you get insulted Nessie please do not respond back in kind; statements like the above crossed out are totally unnecessary adding nothing to the knowledge of the alleged events.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 18:29:26 GMT
Revisionist use of arguments from incredulity are going to be called out, because such arguments are not a substitute for evidence and they are illogical.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 8, 2021 18:41:22 GMT
Revisionist use of arguments from incredulity are going to be called out, because such arguments are not a substitute for evidence and they are illogical. I think we would expect you to call out issues; there is no need to state it. There is evidence and analysis of evidence. If evidence is found wanting it is rejected or put aside until something else comes along. New hypothesis are formed which can be stated here. This is a forum of ideas not just factual information or alleged information with no analysis. Often in any investigation, at the end of the day, there are the facts present on a table, highlighted on a whiteboard and discussed. There are many ways to connect the dots and sometimes those connections are found wanting. All great police dramas have that eureka moment when the dots are connected in a way unimaginable previously. Much of the "evidence" presented by the extermination team is contaminated or faulty in some way; there are plenty around who will "call" that out. The issue is sifting the genuine from the rest so that one does not obtain a result that could be a false positive. In the case of most exterminationists any evidence will do, little apparent critical thinking gone into what is presented as factual. So enough of what you think about "revisonist" arguments; it is you who have placed people who disagree into some "revisionist" camp. This is a cognitive construct of your own making reflecting your own internal classification, little to do with the real situation.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 8, 2021 18:59:18 GMT
Noting that a witness has overestimated the number of people who would fit inside a certain sized place, is not evidence that place did not exist. It is also not evidence that the witness has lied. It is merely evidence the witness has overestimated. This thread is just yet another attempt to discredit witnesses to gassings by portraying them as liars. The problem is, those who seek to discredit those witnesses, use a methodology that is flawed due to its lack of logic and understanding of how witnesses behave.the If the world record of telephone box people is 14 and some witnesses claim for some reason it is 28, one must ask serious questions about their credibility; are they lying, mistaken or was the telephone box something else. Was there a trick, a hole in the ground or some exit unknown. An over estimation of such proportions needs serious reflection as to the reasons why; this is not calling them liars (even though they might be) To attack those questioning the anomaly by assuming others apart from yourself do not know how witnesses behave is really a leap of faith with no supporting evidence. Please stick to the subject matter and do not concern yourself with what you think is a flawed methodology. It is not the methodology that is being discussed here or anywhere at the moment.
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Post by been_there on Nov 8, 2021 23:13:09 GMT
5 people per square metre (this should be the UPPER limit for standing/viewing spaces). www.gkstill.com/_Media/5-people-per-square-metre-2_med_hr.jpeg5 people can comfortably stand in one square metre. If we double that and assume 10 people could be squeezed into a square metre, that is still only 250 people in one of Wiernikโs alleged thirteen โgas chambersโ. Even if we treble that, and assume 15 people could somehow be crammed uncomfortably into the same space, that still only results in 375 people. Wiernik claimed that as many as 500 could be fitted. And the general narrative is that they thought they were to take a shower!!!? In buildings deliberately disguised as showers. Even with reassuring stars of David above the entrance to reassure them. Yet this idiotic, dishonest troll asserts that Wiernikโs sick fable fits with that narrative and does not contradict that โeye-witnessโ consensus view. ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ ...Wiernik... was just poor at estimating the size of a crowd and he has overestimated how many were gassed at a time. The disgusing of gas chambers as showers is reported at the other AR camps, A-B and for the T4 euthanasia project. Your arguments from... blah, blah, moronic blah, blah... RODOH is about โreal open-debateโ. Not replying to facts with moronic avoidance and denial of reality by justifying and defending obvious nonsense and lies. It is an obvious fact that hermetically sealed, brick buildings would collapse if used as gas chambers in the way described by T2 lie-witnesses. It is an obvious fact that people will not appear โyellowโ if asphyxiated by carbon monoxide from petrol-engine exhaust fumes. It is an obvious fact that the racist liar Yankil Wiernik did not have scars from having his ears nailed to walls. It is an obvious fact that the racist liar Yankil Wiernik invented sick, physically impossible atrocities such as children regularly being torn in half by one sadistic guard. It is an obvious fact that the racist liar Yankil Wiernik lied when he claimed... etc., etc., etc. This really shouldnโt need to be emphasised again and again. Not if we were discussing with people who were engaging in debate honestly and reasonably. So I hope any new readers will learn from this that the troll with the username Nessie is therefore clearly not interested in genuine, honest discussion that seeks to ascertain what is true and accurate history. This is demonstrated by the fact that on the previous version of RODOH he would never concede when he was shown to be in error. Not even on the most basic and simple points. Just as he has done now in every post he has replied to in this new version of RODOH. So...The mythology of Treblinka 2 DEFINITELY IS that the alleged gas chambers there were disguised as showers to fool unsuspecting victims to enter willingly. The racist, sick lies of Yankil Wiernik and his obviously nonsensical claim of 450 to 500 people entering a room 5m x 5m, and therefore being so tightly jammed in that they remained standing after death by gas OBVIOUSLY does NOT support the consensus mythology of victims going to their deaths unwittingly believing they were going to have a shower. You canโt have a shower by being impossibly crammed so tightly that even when dead you remain standing If a person cannot understand or concede even this obvious discrepancy, they are clearly not able to have an intelligent, reasonable discussion about ANY aspect of the legally protected H narrative. Such a person is Nessie: someone who is not here for genuine discussion. Treating them as if they are serious about discussion I suggest is not a good idea. Instead I suggest they should face some disciplinary action when they repeatedly and deceitfully dodge conceding facts and blatant errors and discrepancies in narratives that they are presenting as accurate... as he has just done. I therefore request and suggest that we try NOW to create a forum where only honest, reasonable, genuine discussion is permitted and obvious obfuscators and time-wasting provocateurs such as Nessie are discouraged from contributing deliberate idiocy.
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 8:03:03 GMT
If one thinks about this alleged attempt at subterfuge, it shows a remarkable lack of acumen on those attempting this. This little trick was known about by every Jew, from Budapest to Corfu; this is why the following statement and similar was made: "When we took a shower, we didn't know whether gas is coming out or the water." ( History.com) The worst kept top secret in the world and the dumb Nazis still tried to fool those people.
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Nessie
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Posts: 5,772
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Post by Nessie on Nov 9, 2021 10:57:20 GMT
Noting that a witness has overestimated the number of people who would fit inside a certain sized place, is not evidence that place did not exist. It is also not evidence that the witness has lied. It is merely evidence the witness has overestimated. This thread is just yet another attempt to discredit witnesses to gassings by portraying them as liars. The problem is, those who seek to discredit those witnesses, use a methodology that is flawed due to its lack of logic and understanding of how witnesses behave.the If the world record of telephone box people is 14 and some witnesses claim for some reason it is 28, one must ask serious questions about their credibility; are they lying, mistaken or was the telephone box something else. Was there a trick, a hole in the ground or some exit unknown. An over estimation of such proportions needs serious reflection as to the reasons why; this is not calling them liars (even though they might be) To attack those questioning the anomaly by assuming others apart from yourself do not know how witnesses behave is really a leap of faith with no supporting evidence. Please stick to the subject matter and do not concern yourself with what you think is a flawed methodology. It is not the methodology that is being discussed here or anywhere at the moment. You are correct to ask "are they lying, mistaken" or was there a "trick". The answer lies in how witnesses behave and what the corroborating evidence states. Are witnesses good, bad or indifferent at estimating the size of crowds? The answer is bad to indifferent, that is normal for all witnesses. Most people do not know about the methods for accurately estimating the size of a crowd. Then, in the case of Wiernik, his claims about people being crowded into chambers is corroborated by multiple other witnesses and circumstantial evidence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 9, 2021 11:33:20 GMT
If one thinks about this alleged attempt at subterfuge, it shows a remarkable lack of acumen on those attempting this. This little trick was known about by every Jew, from Budapest to Corfu; this is why the following statement and similar was made: "When we took a shower, we didn't know whether gas is coming out or the water." ( History.com) The worst kept top secret in the world and the dumb Nazis still tried to fool those people. You have failed to note that the statements made by witnesses about showers and gassings, were made AFTER the war, when they had found out about the subterfuge. Yet again, you have failed to taken into account simple chronology. When they were being taken to the camps, they did not know about showers that were in fact gas chambers. They were not told about that on arrival at the camps and were told, often by others Jews, to strip and they were going for a shower. Those Jews were the Sonderkommados, who had accepted they would help the Nazis so that they could try to survive. It was only after being selected to work, that the Jews then found out that the showers were in fact gas chambers. Then, after the war, often years later, they told how lucky they had to been to escape being sent to the supposed showers that they had subsequently found to be gas chambers.
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 11:39:47 GMT
case of Wiernik, his claims about people being crowded into chambers is corroborated by multiple other witnesses and circumstantial evidence. It is not the crowded claim that is being questioned but the absurd impossible number. It is interesting how this information from Wiernik corresponds with the literature provided by Gerstein. It seems as though the Polish Undergound have obtained Gersteins Report who passed this onto Dutch resistance in Feb 1943. Wiernik escaped Treblinka in August 43 after Gerstein presented his report to foreign intelligence. He wrote his book in 1944 and published ( Rok w Treblince). This manuscript was sent through Polish underground channels to London, and translated into English and Yiddish.
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 11:50:56 GMT
You have failed to note that the statements made by witnesses about showers and gassings, were made AFTER the war, when they had found out about the subterfuge. Yet again, you have failed to taken into account simple chronology. When they were being taken to the camps, they did not know about showers that were in fact gas chambers. They were not told about that on arrival at the camps and were told, often by others Jews, to strip and they were going for a shower. Those Jews were the Sonderkommados, who had accepted they would help the Nazis so that they could try to survive. It was only after being selected to work, that the Jews then found out that the showers were in fact gas chambers. Then, after the war, often years later, they told how lucky they had to been to escape being sent to the supposed showers that they had subsequently found to be gas chambers. The people heard about the fake showers during the war; of course they were interviewed after it. They had heard rumors and believed that the showers would deliver gas and not water. Irene Zisblatt says: "I was told not to eat as eating make it harder to die with the gas, when I had a shower, water came out, I couldn't believe it". I will repeat, that every jew in Hungary, Poland, Rumania, Greece "knew" that showers meant gas.
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Post by been_there on Nov 9, 2021 11:51:08 GMT
...case of Wiernik, his claims about people being crowded into chambers is corroborated by multiple other witnesses and circumstantial evidence. May I request some moderation to discourage the repetitive and obvious deceitful avoidance of this person. Five hundred people being crammed into a room 5mx5m can not by any stretch of the imagination be reconciled with the narrative that people entered a supposedly disguised โgas chambersโ, willingly believing they were about to take a group shower. Three times now this person has deceitfully and/or moronically dodged this self-evident inconsistency in the lie-witness testimony of Wiernik. Plus he has dodged all the other examples given demonstrating Wiernikโs racist and sick ramblings.
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 11:54:53 GMT
That helps to further prove my point, witnesses are not good at estimating crowds and tend to overestimate, whether it is Gerstein or Wiernik. What is important, is they corroborate. People were stuffed into gas chambers and gassed. When witnesses and accused corroborate, that adds to the credibility of their evidence. For some reason you are defending obvious liars. If there are 1000 people in a sports ground, it is OK to estimate 800 or perhaps 1200. If someone estimates 10 thousand then the credibility of that person is in serious doubt. It does however, appear a concession that the witnesses are not lying but merely mistaken. That is fine, but it is a matter of what degree.
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Post by been_there on Nov 9, 2021 12:20:39 GMT
That helps to further prove my point, witnesses are... blah, blah, dishonest avoidance blah, blah...For some reason you are defending obvious liars... Yes, he is defending obvious liars. The โreasonโ seems clear: he is only here to defend obvious lies about a particular, legally-protected part of the WW2 narrative. He is not here to engage in genuine, honest discussion and โopen debateโ about it. He is only here to obfuscate and deceive. How else to explain it? A knowledgeable, intelligent and sincere person would not present obviously nonsensical and easily refuted accounts as though they were credible testimony. Wiernik has been refuted in a few obviously false particulars. There is much more of his racist ramblings that could be refuted. The same applies to the other two accounts this person referenced.
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