Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 6, 2021 2:22:23 GMT
Anyone who claims that close to a million people were gassed/asphyxiated, buried in giant mass graves then exhumed and cremated using little to no fuel on grates constructed from railroad rails, rocks, concrete pylons or blocks and their cremains either thrown back into the graves, used to grit roads or whatever is lying.
Brick buildings cannot be used as pressure vessels. Giant graves can't be dug without proper equipment and cremations can't be conducted without sufficient fuel. Nessie's claim that I must prove what did happen is merely a deflection. What is claimed are impossibilities. What is impossible didn't happen.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 6, 2021 4:01:31 GMT
There are physical laws, universal truths such as water is wet and fire is hot. Claiming the contrary to suit an agenda isn't and can't be valid. Nessie can kick and screech from now til forever but he can't change reality.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 6, 2021 9:43:45 GMT
No, the Germans did NOT use conventional building methods to build a brick pressure vessel. No, you can't dig 10X30X50 meter pits without the proper equipment. No you CANNOT cremate hundreds of thousands of cadavers with essentially no fuel. You can stamp your feet and shriek, "Yes you can, yes you can" from now til forever but that will NOT change reality. Those are the realities of the claims made for Treblinka. If it was impossible it didn't happen.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 6, 2021 23:55:28 GMT
No, the Germans did NOT use conventional building methods to build a brick pressure vessel. No, you can't dig 10X30X50 meter pits without the proper equipment. No you CANNOT cremate hundreds of thousands of cadavers with essentially no fuel. You can stamp your feet and shriek, "Yes you can, yes you can" from now til forever but that will NOT change reality. Those are the realities of the claims made for Treblinka. If it was impossible it didn't happen. The pressure issue is solved simply with a hinged vent. Your claim the Nazis would not think to do that is utter nonsense.
The Nazis had equipment to dig massive earthworks for defences, so they had the same equipment to dig big pits, especially at a camp next to a quarry. The Nazis had ample access to wood for the pyres, all we know is that according to witnesses, it took less wood to set the pyres burning than expected.
You are ignoring the physical impossibility of transporting and accommodating millions of Jews, without leaving any evidence.
Nessie trots out his usual tired line of "what ifs" and "coulda, woulda, shoulda". The alleged eyewitnesses all exaggerated, lied or were mistaken. Cadavers can be cremated with little to no wood or other fuel. Your fantasies are irrelevant, Nessie. If it was impossible, it didn't happen.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 7, 2021 0:12:57 GMT
Venator said: "Nessie is correct in that nothing is impossible, it is really a matter of probability, when the constraints and resources at the time are considered. Some Germans could engineer and construct the things mentioned as could any experts with the resources needed."
I don't agree that nothing was impossible for the Germans. Using conventional building techniques the Germans could NOT have constructed a pressure vessel from bricks that would withstand both a vacuum and several ATM of pressure. Neither could they have dug the mass graves as variously described by the alleged eyewitnesses without Nessie's fantasy machine. Bodies could NOT have been exhumed with draglines as claimed by the alleged eyewitnesses. The wood necessary to cremate a body or series of bodies has been established by several thousands of years of cremation experience by the Hindus of India. Such amounts of wood or other fuel wasn't available at Treblinka. If it was impossible it didn't happen. Nessie's fantasies notwithstanding.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 7, 2021 9:15:59 GMT
Venator said: "Nessie is correct in that nothing is impossible, it is really a matter of probability, when the constraints and resources at the time are considered. Some Germans could engineer and construct the things mentioned as could any experts with the resources needed." I don't agree that nothing was impossible for the Germans. Using conventional building techniques the Germans could NOT have constructed a pressure vessel from bricks that would withstand both a vacuum and several ATM of pressure. Neither could they have dug the mass graves as variously described by the alleged eyewitnesses without Nessie's fantasy machine. Bodies could NOT have been exhumed with draglines as claimed by the alleged eyewitnesses. The wood necessary to cremate a body or series of bodies has been established by several thousands of years of cremation experience by the Hindus of India. Such amounts of wood or other fuel wasn't available at Treblinka. If it was impossible it didn't happen. Nessie's fantasies notwithstanding. Which means, as we already know from other evidence, the claims about the use of a vacuum are wrong, the chambers were not used as vacuum chambers. The one report of an attempt to pump out air did not work. Any pressure issues are solved with a simple hinged vent.
No witness claims a dragline was used to exhume the bodies.
There were tons of wood and fuel available in Poland to deliver to TII and get the pyres burning. The pyres themselves worked in the same way a BBQ works. Air is drawn in to the embers below, producing upwards of 1000 degrees, which will easily set bodies on fire.
The fantasies are the claims the Germans could not work out any of the above
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 7, 2021 9:35:05 GMT
Being a Holocaust denier is anti-Semitic, as it assumes all the Jews who said they saw gas chambers lied, and all the Jews who saw what really happened inside the AR camps and A-B Kremas lied and somehow Jews have manipulated all of the Nazis who worked at those places to lie and to then get all the historians who have searched for and studied the evidence to lie and all of that was done to get compensation. That plays to anti-Semitic trope of all Jews are untrustworthy, manipulative and love money. Name and quote three Jews who all claim to have seen homicidal gas chambers and post their narratives. Do the same for the alleged witnesses at the AR camps. If they're telling the truth then their stories should vary only in small details.
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 7, 2021 11:30:37 GMT
Nessie wrote: "Which means, as we already know from other evidence, the claims about the use of a vacuum are wrong, the chambers were not used as vacuum chambers."
We know from eyewitness testimony that the alleged gas chambers functioned both as a vacuum chamber and a pressure vessel. Your "other evidence" is just your suppositions, not what the witnesses said.
From Nessie: "No witness claims a dragline was used to exhume the bodies."
Wiernik claimed that a "digger" (dragline) was used to exhume as many as 5,000 bodies at a time. Others said that as many as four diggers/draglines were used to exhume cadavers.
From Nessie: "There were tons of wood and fuel available in Poland to deliver to TII and get the pyres burning. The pyres themselves worked in the same way a BBQ works. Air is drawn in to the embers below, producing upwards of 1000 degrees, which will easily set bodies on fire."
No Treblinka eyewitness claimed that tons of wood was used to cremate the cadavers. Your BBQ theory is a bust. Hindus lay their dead directly on top of the cremation wood. Your fantasy about a magic BBQ is bullshit, Nessie. You are doing nothing but trotting out your, "The Germans coulda'/woulda'/shoulda' done it" fantasies and to hell with what the alleged eyewitnesses said.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 7, 2021 16:48:41 GMT
Nessie wrote: "Which means, as we already know from other evidence, the claims about the use of a vacuum are wrong, the chambers were not used as vacuum chambers." We know from eyewitness testimony that the alleged gas chambers functioned both as a vacuum chamber and a pressure vessel. Your "other evidence" is just your suppositions, not what the witnesses said. From Nessie: "No witness claims a dragline was used to exhume the bodies." Wiernik claimed that a "digger" (dragline) was used to exhume as many as 5,000 bodies at a time. Others said that as many as four diggers/draglines were used to exhume cadavers. From Nessie: "There were tons of wood and fuel available in Poland to deliver to TII and get the pyres burning. The pyres themselves worked in the same way a BBQ works. Air is drawn in to the embers below, producing upwards of 1000 degrees, which will easily set bodies on fire." No Treblinka eyewitness claimed that tons of wood was used to cremate the cadavers. Your BBQ theory is a bust. Hindus lay their dead directly on top of the cremation wood. Your fantasy about a magic BBQ is bullshit, Nessie. You are doing nothing but trotting out your, "The Germans coulda'/woulda'/shoulda' done it" fantasies and to hell with what the alleged eyewitnesses said. There is no eyewitness to the chamber who stated it functioned as a vacuum chamber. One eyewitness to the chambers stated it was tried and did not work. None of the others who claimed a vacuum was used, actually saw the chambers in action, they worked elsewhere in the camp. ALL of the eyewitness to the chamber in use said gas was used to kill those inside.
Wiernik said a "machine" or an "excavator", not a dragline was used. No witness said a dragline was used, you keep on making up stories that witnesses referred to draglines. You are taking Wiernik's comment about thousands of bodies excavated at one time very literally, to mean one scoop removed all the bodies. If you read the context, he is referring to how many bodies were excavated each time to put onto the pyres.
"He put a machine for exhuming the corpses into operation, an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time. A fire grate made of railroad tracks was placed on concrete foundations 100 to 150 meters in length. The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire. I am no longer a young man and have seen a great deal in my lifetime, but not even Lucifer could possibly have created a hell worse than this. Can you picture a grate of this length piled high with 3,000 corpses of people who had been alive only a short time before?"
Each time an excavator was used to excavate 3000 corpses to put 3000 corpses onto the pyre.
We do not know how much wood was delivered or used for the pyres. Just because you think BBQs cannot work, does not mean they do not work. Embers produce up to 1000 degrees centigrade, easily enough to set bodies on fire. Your claim that is not enough heat to burn a body is a fantasy on your part.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 8:57:47 GMT
Being a Holocaust denier is anti-Semitic, as it assumes all the Jews who said they saw gas chambers lied, and all the Jews who saw what really happened inside the AR camps and A-B Kremas lied and somehow Jews have manipulated all of the Nazis who worked at those places to lie and to then get all the historians who have searched for and studied the evidence to lie and all of that was done to get compensation. That plays to anti-Semitic trope of all Jews are untrustworthy, manipulative and love money. Name and quote three Jews who all claim to have seen homicidal gas chambers and post their narratives. Do the same for the alleged witnesses at the AR camps. If they're telling the truth then their stories should vary only in small details. Yankel Wiernik
Eliahu Rosenberg
Samuel Rajzman (trial testimony)
Those are just one example each of various times those witnesses gave testimony at trials or elsewhere about what they saw. They all claim chambers were used to gas people and any variation in what they saw is due to the way they chose to describe or the questions they were asked. Their evidence is the equivalent of three witnesses to a murder who all agree that a gun was used to shoot people.
Now you link to and name three Jewish witnesses who worked inside TII and who say it functioned as a transit camp with no mass murdering of those who arrived.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 8, 2021 9:11:30 GMT
link to and name three Jewish witnesses who worked inside TII and who say it functioned as a transit camp with no mass murdering of those who arrived. I am at loss why this is posted. Turnagain has said on multiple occasions that about 11 thousand people left this camp; this alone by the actions defines it as a transit camp on these occasions. I should imagine in all camps people come and go all the time. No one is claiming this place was a sole transit camp, but that was one of its functions like all camps when the need arises. Why would the witnesses need to be Jewish? Marian Olszuk walked up to the camp perimeter and saw nothing untoward, his testimony being at variance with the more spectacular claims. From all accounts this man is a trustworthy individual independent of the scenario painted. If a carriage load of invalids destined for Aktion 14f13 arrived and dispatched, would this be regarded as mass murder. Please define your terms.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 9:21:49 GMT
When there is evidence c840-860,000 people arrived at TII on mass transports and there is evidence at most c9,000 (Turnagain claims up to 20,000, but refuses to show a reliable source for that number) left on smaller transports to go to camps either south or west of TII, further back into Poland, that is again evidence to disprove revisionist claims of TII was a transit camp sending hundreds of thousands to be resettled in the east. It proves that TII had a worker selection process, as did the other AR camps and A-B, where not all arrivals were gassed.
Where is your evidence AR was part of the T4 euthanasia project? AR is well documented, it was a massive theft of property, stolen from Jews as they were sent to ghettos and then to the AR camps, by the end of which everything they owned had been stolen. That is not consistent with resettlement. It is consistent with killing them. The only connection between T4 and AR is that many staff from T4, were transferred to AR when T4 was officially ended. That is again consistent with AR being about theft and killings, not resettlement.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 8, 2021 9:44:16 GMT
When there is evidence c840-860,000 people arrived at TII on mass transports and there is evidence at most c9,000 (Turnagain claims up to 20,000, but refuses to show a reliable source for that number) left on smaller transports to go to camps either south or west of TII, further back into Poland, that is again evidence to disprove revisionist claims of TII was a transit camp sending hundreds of thousands to be resettled in the east. It proves that TII had a worker selection process, as did the other AR camps and A-B, where not all arrivals were gassed. Where is your evidence AR was part of the T4 euthanasia project? AR is well documented, it was a massive theft of property, stolen from Jews as they were sent to ghettos and then to the AR camps, by the end of which everything they owned had been stolen. That is not consistent with resettlement. It is consistent with killing them. The only connection between T4 and AR is that many staff from T4, were transferred to AR when T4 was officially ended. That is again consistent with AR being about theft and killings, not resettlement. I am not sure if so many people arrived at this camp but to a destination where data was collected for statistical purposes. Surely the location of the AR camps within a few km of the German Russian border must spike some interest. The people arriving would have little idea where they were. Turnagain can sort out the number business. It seems there is some idea that people were "resettled" east; this may have been the intention but certainly did not happen. It is known hundreds of thousands did arrive east somehow; the 600 camps (judenlagers) attest to that. I personally would not call working for any military on minimum salary resettlement. If the sexes were segregated, families torn apart that is not resettlement by any standards. It is an evacuation. I do believe that term was used by Korherr. The euthanasia program was ubiquitous, so it would be strange if it did not occur in TII. It certainly did at Sobibor by all accounts. My understanding is that Prudent Regret found extremely relevant information on the old thread of the naming of AR; genuine witnesses saw books and clothing burned but somehow this morphed into bodies. Strangely enough Marian Olszuk also saw clothing burned within the camp confines and nothing else. I think you have brought up an interesting point why T4 staff were seconded to the AR camps; I am beginning to form a hypothesis that the camps were euthanasia orientated so the incapacitated did not cross the border. At Sobibor they were just shot, so no need to think differently for Treblinka. The T4 staff were needed as it would be illegal to euthanize anyone without the credentials. If other people did it, this would be murder. From all accounts no more than a few thousand souls crossed the rainbow bridge this way. I am well aware of the very slippery slope from controlled euthanasia to the claims of mass murder; it is the same claims that people try when issues of abortion and euthanasia today arise. What is interesting is that the AR camps were not konzentrationslager under the control of SS-Totenkopfverbรคnde. This is why the SS staff did not wear the death head insignia on the collar but normal SS runes, as in the Sobibor photos.
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Post by been_there on Nov 8, 2021 10:05:08 GMT
Name and quote three Jews who all claim to have seen homicidal gas chambers and post their narratives. Do the same for the alleged witnesses at the AR camps. If they're telling the truth then their stories should vary only in small details. Yankel Wiernik
Eliahu Rosenberg
Samuel Rajzman (trial testimony)
...They all claim chambers were used to gas people and any variation in what they saw is due to the way they chose to describe or the questions they were asked. Their evidence is the equivalent of three witnesses to a murder who all agree that a gun was used to shoot people. Anyone who provides the mentally sick imaginings and racist nonsense of Yankl Wiernick as credible, eye-witness testimony is themselves beyond contempt. His nonsense has been refuted so many times, and this disgustingly dishonest troll knows that. That ANYBODY EVER believed and accepted Wiernikโs ludicrous, anti-German hate-tropes and lies is a mystery. His sick imaginings demonstrates the ironically anti-German RACIST nature of this monstrous, wartime, psy-op calumny. His is a fable that in my opinion can be believed only by simple, gullible minds. How anyone could read his account and believe it amazes me. Hermetically-sealed brick chambers could not withstand the pressure of engine exhaust being pumped into them for 25 minutes. It is a physical impossibility. The building would collapse. The claim this occurred multiple times a day for months is physically impossible. It is an extremely nonsensical lie. This has been explained to this idiotic person multiple times. That he insists on presenting the same easily refuted testimony and arguments shows he is impervious to reason and is not here to ascertain what is true and what is false in the narrative regarding the Jewish experience during WW2. Q. How many nail holes did Yankl Wiernik have in his ears? A. None. Not a single nail hole in either ear. But how is that possible??? Unless... could it be... no....? surely not??? ....could it be he lied and invented sick descriptions of sadism? Q. How many people can be fitted now into a space of 25m 2? Q. Why were all of them โyellowโ from asphyxiation from exhaust fumes? Why werenโt they pink as all other victims of carbon monoxide posoning are? How did any work get done, if this allegedly constant sadistic torture, beatings and mauling by dogs was a reality? This is obviously despicable, racist generalisation and therefore (ironically) is hate-speech. What a hypocrisy that it is not only permitted but protected by law from criticism. What sort of super-human strength is needed to โ...frequently snatch a child from the woman's arms and tear the child in halfโ?? ๐ฎ๐ And... Why even bother with transporting them anywhere and โgassingโ them? If this account of cruely were true it would have been so much simpler to just put people planned for extermination in the open and let them freeze to death. ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ ________ CONCLUSION: Only a sick mind would invent such racist, sadistic nonsense. Only racists perpetuating hate-tropes would defend it and present it as historical truth. What an irony.
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Post by been_there on Nov 8, 2021 10:48:27 GMT
5 people per square metre (this should be the UPPER limit for standing/viewing spaces). www.gkstill.com/_Media/5-people-per-square-metre-2_med_hr.jpeg5 people can comfortably stand in one square metre. If we double that and assume 10 people could be squeezed into a square metre, that is still only 250 people in one of Wiernikโs alleged thirteen โgas chambersโ. Even if we treble that, and assume 15 people could somehow be crammed uncomfortably into the same space, that still only results in 375 people. Wiernik claimed that as many as 500 could be fitted. And the general narrative is that they thought they were going to take a shower!!!? In buildings deliberately disguised as showers. Even with reassuring stars of David above the entrance to reassure them. Yet this idiotic, dishonest troll asserts that Wiernikโs sick fable fits with that narrative and does not contradict that โeye-witnessโ consensus view. ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ
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