The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

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papasha
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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by papasha » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:47 am
The holocaust is war-time atrocity propaganda. It isn't equally comparable to events post-war.
except it wasn't even made a big deal of during the war, despite the allies being aware of it since at least 1942. thats literally one of the deniers arguments, that the whole thing was made up after the fact :lol:
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
...most of these people survived to tell their stories in books, newspapers, TV shows.
Which books, newspaper articles and TV shows exactly. Can you reference some for each category?
:lol: "if i deconstruct everything the other guy says i can't lose, prove you exist"
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
And as they passed away the next generation of family still knows the history, still know where their great grandparents came from. And yet for these mythical resettled Jews its exactly 0.
Hmmm? Do you think you are being entirely honest about the fate of Jews in the Soviet sphere? E.g. are you familiar with the case of Henryk Tauber's brother Bendit?

(Henryk Tauber or Henryk Fuchsbrunner, also known as Henry Fuchs, etc., etc.)

See here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3955&start=200#p157400

.
lol i searched your username and the word "tauber" and you've been spamming this copypasta citing Benidit as proof Jews were actually transported to the Soviet Union and not genocided despite the fact that the first time you discussed this person it was with a guy claiming to be Bendit Fuchsbrunner's son (!!!!), who explained that his father rather luckily escaped into the Soviet part of occupied poland at the very start of the war in 1939 was apparently imprisoned somewhere in the USSR before being re-united with his brother Henryk after the war, but other than Henryk, their entire extended family household of 11 people left in German territory were wiped out by the Nazis, similar thing on this poster's mother's side.

You apparently accepted this and thanked him for his contribution (its pretty rare to have someone post here that has a direct connection to these events, and i still dont know if he's for real, but no one seemed to doubt it), then you proceed to spam this Benidit case as an example of "transported Jews to the USSR" anyway for another 20 posts. I dont get it. You guys pathologize Jews so much as being immoral people who lie and fabricate the worst things to push their narrative, but then you still intentionally consciously shit all over this guy who's bloodline was almost completely exterminated by basically implying that its all fake and they didn't die and he's part of this hoax too. I'm not necessarily saying you're a bad person (this all becomes academic and abstract after a while), just seems like a scummy thing to do

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been-there
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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by been-there » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:43 am

papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am
been-there wrote:
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
...most of these people survived to tell their stories in books, newspapers, TV shows.
Which books, newspaper articles and TV shows exactly. Can you reference some for each category?
:lol: "if i deconstruct everything the other guy says i can't lose, prove you exist"
Ah. Ok. I take that to be an admission you just made that assertion up about books, newspapers articles and TV shows. Correct?

papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am
been-there wrote:
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
And as they passed away the next generation of family still knows the history, still know where their great grandparents came from. And yet for these mythical resettled Jews its exactly 0.
Hmmm? Do you think you are being entirely honest about the fate of Jews in the Soviet sphere? E.g. are you familiar with the case of Henryk Tauber's brother Bendit?

(Henryk Tauber or Henryk Fuchsbrunner, also known as Henry Fuchs, etc., etc.)

See here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3955&start=200#p157400
You apparently accepted this and thanked him for his contribution
There is no "apparently" about it. I definitely DID do that, and you just saw it. Wow. You can't even admit that? :?

papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am
...I dont get it. You guys pathologize Jews so much as being immoral people who lie and fabricate the worst things to push their narrative, but then you still intentionally consciously shit all over this guy... ...I'm not necessarily saying you're a bad person... just seems like a scummy thing to do
:o How on Earth do you conclude that my response to that person was “intentionally consciously shitting all over this guy”??
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by been-there » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:04 am

.
I delayed replying to the details in this post, hoping that a completed answer to my analogy would make some of it either clearer and/or unnecessary.
This is disappointing Lupus, as you have in my opinion now demonstrated that you are regretably not interested in a serious, rational discussion. I believe that, as otherwise I expect you would welcome clarification and agreement of relevant and important definitions and terms used in such discussion.
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
I am aware of the evidence that supports the existence of mass extermination and gassing of Jews. Whether you class it is as 'empirical' or otherwise is of no or little importance.
This isn't about what I myself consider to be 'empirical evidence'. Its not a matter of choice or opinion! :?
This lack of understanding of what empiricism means, demonstrates an argument that is disconnected from reality based upon ignorance.
My point is that the evidence available is credible evidence. It does not need to fall into the category that you or the field of science class as 'empirical'.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
You appear to be under the illusion that the only evidence that should be accepted as credible must be what you refer to as 'empirical', but you are seriously mistaken and deluded.
That is a strawman argument AND ad hominem. The holocaust narrative doesn't stand or fall on what people 'believe' to be true. This is a classic argument for faith over reason which demonstrates that 'the holocaust' has become like a religion in the minds of its believers.
You have not understood my point. You appear to have a blind spot when confronted with credible evidence. The only reason I 'believe' that homicidal gas chambers were a reality is by interpreting the available evidence , whether you or the field of science classes it as 'empirical' or not. I am not basing my 'belief' on the plausibility of an event like you are, or by relying on speculation either. My 'belief' is based on the available evidence, and adopting common sense, rationality and logic when interpreting it. Could we same the same for you ? I don't believe we can.
That this argument represents a self-delusion you are practising on yourself I believe would have become clear to you if you had finished answering my analogy. My guess is that you refused to do that because you were to some extent aware you were stepping into an area of what for you is comparitive ignorance, and you feared having to alter or revise aspects of a cherished belief system. I.e. I believe you are now in a state of denial. Which I regard as one of the great ironies of our times: that the one's who are so free with the pejorative 'holocaust denier' themselves often fit the description better.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
This isn't a frigging science experiment, this is history, and to determine the historical truth you have to use all available evidence, ensuring it corroborates with other forms.
Sure, we use all available evidence. Of course. No argument with that. But my previous unanswered analogy (below) demonstrated the illogicality and self-deceptive nature of this argument.
It has now been answered. Nothing has changed.
It was only half answered. The most relevant second question was dodged. Three times at the present time.
And it was such a simple, innocuous question. I presume you dodged it because you were subliminally aware of your answer's far reaching consequences.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
I doubt that serious students of the Holocaust would allow the contents of those films [e.g. accounts of survivors being transited through Treblinka] to hold much sway as regarding their views on the credibility of the available evidence for the existence of gas chambers either. So again I do not see the relevance of your comments.
The relevance is that not only is there no empirical evidence for the claimed 'factories of death' homicidal gas chambers — only deeply flawed testimonial evidence that defies the realms of physical possibility in MANY details and which is REFUTED by empiricism — but its even refuted by 'survivor' testimony.
Maybe you need to ask yourself why there appears to be a lack of documentary evidence regarding the AR camps. Any idea ?
Yes, two ideas:
1. The administrators of them destroyed it for some reason. Presumably to conceal incriminating evidence of war-crimes.
2. The Allies destroyed it for some reason. Presumably to better incriminate with concocted evidence of war-crimes.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Even so, this 'empirical' evidence you keep demanding is not necessary . When you have victims, perpetrators and 'neutrals' all confirming the same outcome, backed up by documents such as Korherr Report etc, not forgetting the Nazi 'euphemism' code that has been cracked, then there is no requirement for any scientific 'empirical' evidence. It doesn't matter how much you scream for it, it is NOT required.
What you fail to understand is that I am not just requesting empirical evidence, I am pointing out that the empirical evidence we know of actually REFUTES the holocaust narrative.

And... If you had answered my analogy honestly it would demonstrate why your argument here defies reason.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Unfortunately for revisionists, there is however a more numerous selection of documentary evidence available that proves extermination via gas vans at Chelmno. For example, the correspondence from Willi Just to Walter Rauff (05.06.42) that mentions 97,000 Jews 'processed' in 3 vans. I mean, for christ sake , how could any rationally-minded student of the holocaust dismiss something as incriminating as this ? Don't even bother going down the 'forgery' route. You wont get very far.
This is an important part of the holocaust narrative, no doubt. As it is detailed and off-topic subject I suggest adding it to a relevant topic-thread. No need to derail this one any further.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Now if we apply a bit of logic here, we all know that Korherr included Chelmno alongside the AR camps in his report. They were all part of the section that had received 'special treatment' and no evidence (never mind 'empirical' evidence) has been found of any 'evacuation' to the Russian East , correct ? Need I go on ?
You are still applying the same approach that my analogy sought to explain was bogus.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
This is where you need to discard any swastika-decorated spectacles, my friend, and apply good old fashioned rationale and logic. Are you capable ?
Of course. It is I myself who have been encouraging a more rational and logic evaluation. And I again suggest it is YOU yourself who are avoiding that. This is why you dodged three times an extremely simple but pertinent question. It's called ‘denial’.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
been-there wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:28 pm
Once anyone has delved even a little into the actual facts that can be scientifically verified then I think the distinction becomes obvious. It is this:
1.) that Jews being transported somewhere else does not defy the realms of physical possibility. On the contrary. There are even filmed interviews of Jews narrating passing through Treblinka without awareness of any mass-murdering gassings. There are filmed interviews of Jews narrating playing in orchestras, in theatre productions, playing football, watching films and being paid for their work at Auschwitz, etc, etc., with no awareness that it was an 'extermination camp'. There were some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself. Who was in these if 6 million Jews were killed?
And we have few if any existing records of transportation to any of these other camps and ghettoes being put in front of us either. So if we apply the same logic consistently then H true-believers should be arguing that without such transportation records, all these 42,494 camps WERE EMPTY of any Jews!

2.) The possibility of the eye-witness testimony being accurate regarding gassing/steaming/electrocuting* [*take your pick] in impossible hermetically sealed chambers; then digging impossible pits and burying three quarters of a million bodies without poisoning the water supply to the well; then leaving them to rot for months before disinterring them and cremating them on open pyres in impossible numbers; then making all the trace of ground disturbance, the hundreds of tons of cremains and the millions of teeth disappear and be undetectable by advanced archeological research with Lidar radar — all of that defies science. And that is just analysing the lie-witness testimony regarding just one alleged death camp ( Treblinka2). Similar impossibilities apply at every other camp too.

So 1.) Jews being transported somewhere during a war situation — even without evidence of exactly when and where — is a completely credible and scientifically plausible scenario.

But 2.) Jews being mass-murdered and their remains disappearing without trace in clearly defined locations using physically impossible means is NOT a credible scenario.

That is why the lack of evidence for each scenario is not equal.
1.) There is no evidence ruling out or refuting onward transportation of Jews from AR camps.
2.) There IS evidence that refutes the mass-gassing narrative as it has been alleged by eye-witness (lie-witness) testimony.

Do you see now the distinction?
So now you appear to be relying on 'plausibility' as opposed to evidence...
No. I am applying the empirical paradigm. I suggest you acquaint yourself with it.
I am aware of it. It is not relevant for the purpose of proving the existence of gas chambers. The evidence we already have is sufficient.
:lol: :roll: I again invite you to consider that whether it is "sufficient" or not, would have become clearer if you had honestly and completely answered my analogy. You know, the one you refused to answer? ;)

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
... to prove that what the Korherr Report stated was actually true. If that wasn't hopelessly inadequate on it's own,...
I suggest that anyone who considers the empirical paradigm to be “hopelessly inadequate” for guaging the accuracy of recent history (within living memory) has serious issues with how we as a society currently guage reality.
I did not claim the 'empirical paradigm' was hopelessly inadequate. Read my post again and you will see that it was your new found reliance on the concept of 'plausibility' that I referred to as 'hopelessly inadequate'.
What you misrepresent as 'plausability' would become clearer if you were to answer the dodged part of my analogy.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
...then it's made ten time worse by the points you mention above. Every single one of your arguments that you claim render 'gassing etc' as impossible, is false and based on illogical and irrational reasoning combined with lies and distortions.
Now that would be a useful discussion. Can you provide more detail of why you believe that?
Yes. I will list them individually in a separate post and explain how I arrive at my conclusions regarding their veracity.
I look forward to reading it.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
Just as an example I found your comments regarding the 42,500 camps as being remarkably over-simplified and ignorant. You appear to be having trouble understanding that these camps held non-Jews too. Millions of them.
Millions you say?! Please provide verifiable references that support that assertion.
Before I do so, I am curious if you actually believed that these 42,500 camps just housed Jews. It appears you did, otherwise your post would not make any sense.
No, I do not have a belief that those camps and ghettoes "housed just Jews". Ok?
Now please provide verifiable references that support your assertion. IF YOU CAN? What evidence or reference were you relying on to assert that in those of the 42,500 camps which until recently were not well-known, there were "housed millions" of non-Jews?

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
The 'teeth' comments too. This has been dismissed as a 'non-issue' several times , yet you continually bring up this and other debunked canards . Why ?
I am not aware that it has been debunked. Please point me to this debunking
Here is the key passage from a scientific experiment carried out on teeth. You may class this as 'empirical' evidence !

"From these, observable damages of the teeth subjected to variable temperatures and time can be categorized as Intact (no damage), Scorched (Superficially parched and discolored), Charred (Reduced to carbon by incomplete combustion), and Incinerated (Burned to ashes)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3009553/

You would need to demonstrate the temperature of the cremations at the AR camps would be low enough that teeth would remain intact. And even if you done this successfully , you would then need to demonstrate that these teeth would not have been buried in a pit, or disposed of with the rest of the ash.
This reply I regard as incoherent. It's not supported by even a brief look at the report you cited. On the contrary, the report confirms what I argued. Viz that the remains of millions of teeth should still be there in the alleged mass graves at Treblinka, Sobibor and the 'pools of ashes' at Birkenau.
As this is another damning aspect of the actual 'empirical' evidence that REFUTES the holocaust narrative, I will address it also in another more suitable thread.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
The only impossibilities you need to focus on are the impossibilities of this 'evacuation' to the Russian East . Also, if we could revisit the OP , do you not even become slightly curious when you compare this 'evacuation' to that of the Volga Germans ? Both were basically carried out behind 'iron curtains' , geographically and politically. Yet we know considerably more about one than the other, and credible evidence exists for one and not the other . I would have thought any rationally minded person would arrive at the conclusion that the reason for this disparities was down to one of these evacuations being BOGUS ! especially if all the available evidence suggests that the camps were extermination camps, and that the Nazis were renowned for using 'euphemisms' and camouflaged wording., hence the Korherr Report makes perfect sense in what it is saying, ie 'evacuations' equated to murder , as did 'special treatment' (99% of the time).
I have pointed out that I regard this as a deceitful argument. A reversing of the burden of proof AND a 'moving the goalposts' obfuscation.
I find it quite revealing that you refuse to even pass comment on this comparison of 'evacuations'. I would have thought a comparison to an actual evacuation would be an ideal way of trying to determine the reality of an other evacuation that according to other evidence is BOGUS.
I am not that familiar with the experience of the Volga Germans. Even then I don't think it relevant to the claims of what occurred in Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Belzec andcSobibor, for the reason previously explained. Viz. that this is obfuscatory reversal of the burden of proof.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
So to answer your question then NO, I do not see the 'distinction' - because what you claim is in part false , or based on illogical standards of interpreting evidence/events/science.
Thanks for admitting that so clearly.
I suggest that your admitted inability to see the distinction is why you are a 'believer' in the narrative. You are one of many who cannot look at it unemotionally, rationally, logically, impartially, critically and scientifically. This admission I suggest shows that believing in the war-time mass-gassing allegation is a matter of faith for you, not reason.
I fail to see how you have arrived at such a conclusion.
Yes, I agree. You have failed to see how I arrived at that conclusion. And a simple question that bybanswering might have helped you, you have dodged repeatedly.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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been-there
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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by been-there » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:20 am

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:47 am
Q1. Which of the four types of evidence would you choose to believe was most accurate.
Q2. Why?

...Its an intentionally simple analogy with a precise, intended purpose. I regard the analogy as perfectly adequate for the intended purpose. I suggest you just haven't understood yet what the intended purpose is.

...You are only required to answer the analogous scenario honestly.
There is no right or wrong answer.
It was a two questioned explanatory device.

To complete the purpose of the analogy, please answer the second question of why you consider it to be more accurate.

I will then explain the purpose of the analogy — if you or anyone else is interested to know it — and how it relates to discussing the fate of European Jews, Volga Germans, or any subject of recent history.
Your analogy has no bearing on anything as regards to the fate of the European Jews. That is all you need to know in regards to this matter.
There is no way you could possibly know that without understanding its purpose.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
We all know what your intention is here, to use an irrelevant and over simplified analogy to demonstrate that unless we discover the bodies or remains of 1.5 million Jews then we cannot conclude they were murdered in gas chambers.
Wrong.
Just try honestly answering it. Stop dodging

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
This is your 'empirical' evidence that you demand, to rely on 100% science, ignoring all the evidence that NORMAL, RATIONAL, LOGICAL historians and researchers use to determine an historical event, even if this evidence is overwhelmingly credible and makes sense within the framework of the actions and intentions of the Nazi regime.
Wrong again. Just try answering the second one-word question. Or ...continue to demonstrate that you are in denial and incapable of a rational discussion on this topic.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
I note you are shying away from topics and questions I mentioned in regards your comments re 42,500 nazi camps, and how you have hopelessly misunderstood the issues here , evident by your bizarre mathematical exercise that arrives at a conclusion that 6 million Jews could not have been murdered if there were 42,500 camps !!!!!
I answered it.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
You also have shied away from the Korherr Report, the teeth, the chelmno gas van evidence, and the Volga germans.
I've answered that also. And will go into more detail elsewhere.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
It appears the reason why you are reluctant to continue is your accusation of my unfamiliarity with the 'empirical paradigm'. !!!!! How bizarre is that ?
Again another false assumption. Further proof you have descended into denial and illogicality.
I again invite you to return to a more rational approach. Answer the extremely straightfoward one-word second question.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
It therefore appears you are more concerned with engaging in unnecessary psuedo-intellectual scientific/philosophical verbal preening than the actual things that matter here, ie credible evidence and rationality . Unfortunately I have no interest in getting involved in such diversionary tactics.
Ho-hum! :roll: That I regard as yet another emotional (illogical) dodge.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by Lupus Rothstein » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:34 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:20 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:47 am
Q1. Which of the four types of evidence would you choose to believe was most accurate.
Q2. Why?

...Its an intentionally simple analogy with a precise, intended purpose. I regard the analogy as perfectly adequate for the intended purpose. I suggest you just haven't understood yet what the intended purpose is.

...You are only required to answer the analogous scenario honestly.
There is no right or wrong answer.
It was a two questioned explanatory device.

To complete the purpose of the analogy, please answer the second question of why you consider it to be more accurate.

I will then explain the purpose of the analogy — if you or anyone else is interested to know it — and how it relates to discussing the fate of European Jews, Volga Germans, or any subject of recent history.
Your analogy has no bearing on anything as regards to the fate of the European Jews. That is all you need to know in regards to this matter.
There is no way you could possibly know that without understanding its purpose.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
We all know what your intention is here, to use an irrelevant and over simplified analogy to demonstrate that unless we discover the bodies or remains of 1.5 million Jews then we cannot conclude they were murdered in gas chambers.
Wrong.
Just try honestly answering it. Stop dodging

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
This is your 'empirical' evidence that you demand, to rely on 100% science, ignoring all the evidence that NORMAL, RATIONAL, LOGICAL historians and researchers use to determine an historical event, even if this evidence is overwhelmingly credible and makes sense within the framework of the actions and intentions of the Nazi regime.
Wrong again. Just try answering the second one-word question. Or ...continue to demonstrate that you are in denial and incapable of a rational discussion on this topic.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
I note you are shying away from topics and questions I mentioned in regards your comments re 42,500 nazi camps, and how you have hopelessly misunderstood the issues here , evident by your bizarre mathematical exercise that arrives at a conclusion that 6 million Jews could not have been murdered if there were 42,500 camps !!!!!
I answered it.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
You also have shied away from the Korherr Report, the teeth, the chelmno gas van evidence, and the Volga germans.
I've answered that also. And will go into more detail elsewhere.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
It appears the reason why you are reluctant to continue is your accusation of my unfamiliarity with the 'empirical paradigm'. !!!!! How bizarre is that ?
Again another false assumption. Further proof you have descended into denial and illogicality.
I again invite you to return to a more rational approach. Answer the extremely straightfoward one-word second question.

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am
It therefore appears you are more concerned with engaging in unnecessary psuedo-intellectual scientific/philosophical verbal preening than the actual things that matter here, ie credible evidence and rationality . Unfortunately I have no interest in getting involved in such diversionary tactics.
Ho-hum! :roll: That I regard as yet another emotional (illogical) dodge.
Considering you are making such a song and dance about the 'crucial' (!!) second part of your analogy question, which I genuinely missed the first time round, and informed you of it's irrelevance in my second response, then here is my answer :

It is the most accurate because it produced the most likely reason for the mans death. An autopsy is generally more likely to discover the true cause of death than witness testimony.

Bu as I mentioned to you before, your over-simplified analogy along with my answer has no bearing on the fate of the European Jews. That is the simple fact of the matter.

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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by Huntinger » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 am

We all know what your intention is here, to use an irrelevant and over simplified analogy to demonstrate that unless we discover the bodies or remains of 1.5 million Jews then we cannot conclude they were murdered in gas chambers. This is your 'empirical' evidence that you demand, to rely on 100% science, ignoring all the evidence that NORMAL, RATIONAL, LOGICAL historians and researchers use to determine an historical event, even if this evidence is overwhelmingly credible and makes sense within the framework of the actions and intentions of the Nazi regime.

I note you are shying away from topics and questions I mentioned in regards your comments re 42,500 nazi camps, and how you have hopelessly misunderstood the issues here , evident by your bizarre mathematical exercise that arrives at a conclusion that 6 million Jews could not have been murdered if there were 42,500 camps !!!!! You also have shied away from the Korherr Report, the teeth, the chelmno gas van evidence, and the Volga germans. It appears the reason why you are reluctant to continue is your accusation of my unfamiliarity with the 'empirical paradigm'. !!!!! How bizarre is that ?

It therefore appears you are more concerned with engaging in unnecessary psuedo-intellectual scientific/philosophical verbal preening than the actual things that matter here, ie credible evidence and rationality . Unfortunately I have no interest in getting involved in such diversionary tactics.
This thread is to talk about the evacuation of Volga Germans, not remains of Juden, not gaskammers, not intentions of nazi regime unless it related to Volga Deutsche, not nazi camps, not 6 million sand dwellers, not Korherr, not Chelmno, nor the intellectual propriety of other people. The poster obviously has not bothered to read the interdiction of Depth Check. This post has little relevance to the discussion and an attempt to derail and head in circles: Hasbara tactic identifying poster as a Norwegian under the bridge entity.
𝕸𝖆𝖓𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝕾𝖈𝖍𝖆̈𝖙𝖟𝖊 𝖐𝖆𝖓𝖓 𝖒𝖆𝖓 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖐𝖆𝖚𝖋𝖊𝖓.

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by Lupus Rothstein » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:19 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:04 am
.
I delayed replying to the details in this post, hoping that a completed answer to my analogy would make some of it either clearer and/or unnecessary.
This is disappointing Lupus, as you have in my opinion now demonstrated that you are regretably not interested in a serious, rational discussion. I believe that, as otherwise I expect you would welcome clarification and agreement of relevant and important definitions and terms used in such discussion.
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
I am aware of the evidence that supports the existence of mass extermination and gassing of Jews. Whether you class it is as 'empirical' or otherwise is of no or little importance.
This isn't about what I myself consider to be 'empirical evidence'. Its not a matter of choice or opinion! :?
This lack of understanding of what empiricism means, demonstrates an argument that is disconnected from reality based upon ignorance.
My point is that the evidence available is credible evidence. It does not need to fall into the category that you or the field of science class as 'empirical'.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
You appear to be under the illusion that the only evidence that should be accepted as credible must be what you refer to as 'empirical', but you are seriously mistaken and deluded.
That is a strawman argument AND ad hominem. The holocaust narrative doesn't stand or fall on what people 'believe' to be true. This is a classic argument for faith over reason which demonstrates that 'the holocaust' has become like a religion in the minds of its believers.
You have not understood my point. You appear to have a blind spot when confronted with credible evidence. The only reason I 'believe' that homicidal gas chambers were a reality is by interpreting the available evidence , whether you or the field of science classes it as 'empirical' or not. I am not basing my 'belief' on the plausibility of an event like you are, or by relying on speculation either. My 'belief' is based on the available evidence, and adopting common sense, rationality and logic when interpreting it. Could we same the same for you ? I don't believe we can.
That this argument represents a self-delusion you are practising on yourself I believe would have become clear to you if you had finished answering my analogy. My guess is that you refused to do that because you were to some extent aware you were stepping into an area of what for you is comparitive ignorance, and you feared having to alter or revise aspects of a cherished belief system. I.e. I believe you are now in a state of denial. Which I regard as one of the great ironies of our times: that the one's who are so free with the pejorative 'holocaust denier' themselves often fit the description better.
The now completed answer has been given. Sorry if it spoils your above guesswork regarding why you believed I 'dodged' it in previous posts. As if this silly little example about decapitation and magic mushrooms ( I fear this is one fungus form you maybe over familiar with !! ) , is going to cause any rational and sound minded individual to think twice about how they interpret the available evidence that overwhelmingly proves the existence of homicidal gas chambers, and force them instead to believe in fantastical conspiracy theories !!!
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
This isn't a frigging science experiment, this is history, and to determine the historical truth you have to use all available evidence, ensuring it corroborates with other forms.
Sure, we use all available evidence. Of course. No argument with that. But my previous unanswered analogy (below) demonstrated the illogicality and self-deceptive nature of this argument.
It has now been answered. Nothing has changed.
It was only half answered. The most relevant second question was dodged. Three times at the present time.
And it was such a simple, innocuous question. I presume you dodged it because you were subliminally aware of your answer's far reaching consequences.
Err...basically no. It was an extremely easy question to answer , even if the analogy was slightly ridiculous and over -simplified , along with having no bearing on the fate of the Jews .
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
I doubt that serious students of the Holocaust would allow the contents of those films [e.g. accounts of survivors being transited through Treblinka] to hold much sway as regarding their views on the credibility of the available evidence for the existence of gas chambers either. So again I do not see the relevance of your comments.
The relevance is that not only is there no empirical evidence for the claimed 'factories of death' homicidal gas chambers — only deeply flawed testimonial evidence that defies the realms of physical possibility in MANY details and which is REFUTED by empiricism — but its even refuted by 'survivor' testimony.
Maybe you need to ask yourself why there appears to be a lack of documentary evidence regarding the AR camps. Any idea ?
Yes, two ideas:
1. The administrators of them destroyed it for some reason. Presumably to conceal incriminating evidence of war-crimes.
2. The Allies destroyed it for some reason. Presumably to better incriminate with concocted evidence of war-crimes.
Your first answer was correct. And this can be supported by one of the few remaining documents regarding the AR operation - the memo from Odilo Globocnik from 05.01.44 that went something on the lines of

"With regard to the complete final accounts of OR ,all vouchers to be destroyed as soon as possible, as has been done with all other documents pertaining to this operation"

No evidence exists to support your option 2, so you should at least become slightly suspicous over what was occurring in these camps , even more so when all other forms of evidence converge to create a more detailed picture of the murderous events occurring at these camps .

been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Even so, this 'empirical' evidence you keep demanding is not necessary . When you have victims, perpetrators and 'neutrals' all confirming the same outcome, backed up by documents such as Korherr Report etc, not forgetting the Nazi 'euphemism' code that has been cracked, then there is no requirement for any scientific 'empirical' evidence. It doesn't matter how much you scream for it, it is NOT required.
What you fail to understand is that I am not just requesting empirical evidence, I am pointing out that the empirical evidence we know of actually REFUTES the holocaust narrative.

And... If you had answered my analogy honestly it would demonstrate why your argument here defies reason.
There is no empirical evidence that refutes the existence of homicidal gas chambers or gas vans in the AR camps and Chelmno. You may have raised objections, or put forward opinions, but they are in the main based on speculation and falsehoods, along with an irrational and distorted application of facts and reality.

I have answered your analogy, it is still as meaningless and irrelevant as it was before I answered it.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Unfortunately for revisionists, there is however a more numerous selection of documentary evidence available that proves extermination via gas vans at Chelmno. For example, the correspondence from Willi Just to Walter Rauff (05.06.42) that mentions 97,000 Jews 'processed' in 3 vans. I mean, for christ sake , how could any rationally-minded student of the holocaust dismiss something as incriminating as this ? Don't even bother going down the 'forgery' route. You wont get very far.
This is an important part of the holocaust narrative, no doubt. As it is detailed and off-topic subject I suggest adding it to a relevant topic-thread. No need to derail this one any further.
You may refer to Chelmno as off topic, but as I pointed out , the Chelmno Jews were all part of this bogus evacuation to the Russian East alongside the Jews from the AR camps, which makes them very much 'on topic' if we are to stick to discussing the main purpose of this thread.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
Now if we apply a bit of logic here, we all know that Korherr included Chelmno alongside the AR camps in his report. They were all part of the section that had received 'special treatment' and no evidence (never mind 'empirical' evidence) has been found of any 'evacuation' to the Russian East , correct ? Need I go on ?
You are still applying the same approach that my analogy sought to explain was bogus.
My approach is evaluating the available evidence in a rational and logical manner. The topic of 'euphemisms' (special treatment) is essential to interpreting the evidence yet you appear keen to dismiss any mention of it as adopting 'a bogus approach' !!! An extremely odd viewpoint to say the least.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
This is where you need to discard any swastika-decorated spectacles, my friend, and apply good old fashioned rationale and logic. Are you capable ?
Of course. It is I myself who have been encouraging a more rational and logic evaluation. And I again suggest it is YOU yourself who are avoiding that. This is why you dodged three times an extremely simple but pertinent question. It's called ‘denial’.
You may encourage 'a more rational and logical evaluation' from others, but you certainly do not adhere to what you are encouraging . Maybe you feel you are entitled to some exemption from adopting such standards. Again you harp on about this 'dodging' of the analogy. It has been dealt with, it alters nothing.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
been-there wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:28 pm
Once anyone has delved even a little into the actual facts that can be scientifically verified then I think the distinction becomes obvious. It is this:
1.) that Jews being transported somewhere else does not defy the realms of physical possibility. On the contrary. There are even filmed interviews of Jews narrating passing through Treblinka without awareness of any mass-murdering gassings. There are filmed interviews of Jews narrating playing in orchestras, in theatre productions, playing football, watching films and being paid for their work at Auschwitz, etc, etc., with no awareness that it was an 'extermination camp'. There were some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself. Who was in these if 6 million Jews were killed?
And we have few if any existing records of transportation to any of these other camps and ghettoes being put in front of us either. So if we apply the same logic consistently then H true-believers should be arguing that without such transportation records, all these 42,494 camps WERE EMPTY of any Jews!

2.) The possibility of the eye-witness testimony being accurate regarding gassing/steaming/electrocuting* [*take your pick] in impossible hermetically sealed chambers; then digging impossible pits and burying three quarters of a million bodies without poisoning the water supply to the well; then leaving them to rot for months before disinterring them and cremating them on open pyres in impossible numbers; then making all the trace of ground disturbance, the hundreds of tons of cremains and the millions of teeth disappear and be undetectable by advanced archeological research with Lidar radar — all of that defies science. And that is just analysing the lie-witness testimony regarding just one alleged death camp ( Treblinka2). Similar impossibilities apply at every other camp too.

So 1.) Jews being transported somewhere during a war situation — even without evidence of exactly when and where — is a completely credible and scientifically plausible scenario.

But 2.) Jews being mass-murdered and their remains disappearing without trace in clearly defined locations using physically impossible means is NOT a credible scenario.

That is why the lack of evidence for each scenario is not equal.
1.) There is no evidence ruling out or refuting onward transportation of Jews from AR camps.
2.) There IS evidence that refutes the mass-gassing narrative as it has been alleged by eye-witness (lie-witness) testimony.

Do you see now the distinction?
So now you appear to be relying on 'plausibility' as opposed to evidence...
No. I am applying the empirical paradigm. I suggest you acquaint yourself with it.
I am aware of it. It is not relevant for the purpose of proving the existence of gas chambers. The evidence we already have is sufficient.
:lol: :roll: I again invite you to consider that whether it is "sufficient" or not, would have become clearer if you had honestly and completely answered my analogy. You know, the one you refused to answer? ;)
Oh dear !!
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
... to prove that what the Korherr Report stated was actually true. If that wasn't hopelessly inadequate on it's own,...
I suggest that anyone who considers the empirical paradigm to be “hopelessly inadequate” for guaging the accuracy of recent history (within living memory) has serious issues with how we as a society currently guage reality.
I did not claim the 'empirical paradigm' was hopelessly inadequate. Read my post again and you will see that it was your new found reliance on the concept of 'plausibility' that I referred to as 'hopelessly inadequate'.
What you misrepresent as 'plausability' would become clearer if you were to answer the dodged part of my analogy.
Here we go again !!! Obsessed much ??
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
...then it's made ten time worse by the points you mention above. Every single one of your arguments that you claim render 'gassing etc' as impossible, is false and based on illogical and irrational reasoning combined with lies and distortions.
Now that would be a useful discussion. Can you provide more detail of why you believe that?
Yes. I will list them individually in a separate post and explain how I arrive at my conclusions regarding their veracity.
I look forward to reading it.
No problem. PS thanks for not mentioning my apparent 'dodging' in this post. It made a nice change .


been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
No, I do not have a belief that those camps and ghettoes "housed just Jews". Ok?
Now please provide verifiable references that support your assertion. IF YOU CAN? What evidence or reference were you relying on to assert that in those of the 42,500 camps which until recently were not well-known, there were "housed millions" of non-Jews?
I am using the same source that informed the world that 42,500 camps etc existed in occupied Europe. The actual book that was compiled that documented all of these 42,500 camps. A source which you appear to have jumped all over and treated as gospel with the least amount of fuss, which is quite remarkable considering the source appears to have "Jew fingerprints" all over it. Here is the relevant passage ( from the New York Times) :

" The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 MILLION TO 20 MILLION people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned by 2025.)" https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sund ... cking.html

So, if you now claim that you did NOT mean to infer that all these 42,500 camps housed Jews only, then how is one to make any sense of your original comments that appeared to suggest it would be highly likely that 6 million Jews died if there were 42,500 camps in existence ?
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
The 'teeth' comments too. This has been dismissed as a 'non-issue' several times , yet you continually bring up this and other debunked canards . Why ?
I am not aware that it has been debunked. Please point me to this debunking
Here is the key passage from a scientific experiment carried out on teeth. You may class this as 'empirical' evidence !

"From these, observable damages of the teeth subjected to variable temperatures and time can be categorized as Intact (no damage), Scorched (Superficially parched and discolored), Charred (Reduced to carbon by incomplete combustion), and Incinerated (Burned to ashes)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3009553/

You would need to demonstrate the temperature of the cremations at the AR camps would be low enough that teeth would remain intact. And even if you done this successfully , you would then need to demonstrate that these teeth would not have been buried in a pit, or disposed of with the rest of the ash.
This reply I regard as incoherent. It's not supported by even a brief look at the report you cited. On the contrary, the report confirms what I argued. Viz that the remains of millions of teeth should still be there in the alleged mass graves at Treblinka, Sobibor and the 'pools of ashes' at Birkenau.
As this is another damning aspect of the actual 'empirical' evidence that REFUTES the holocaust narrative, I will address it also in another more suitable thread.
Read the results again. To put it into simple terms, the higher the temperature of the cremation fires, the higher the likelihood that the teeth will be BURNED TO ASH . Therefore any idea you have of there being 'millions of teeth' lying around has turned out to be yet another 'canard' .
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
The only impossibilities you need to focus on are the impossibilities of this 'evacuation' to the Russian East . Also, if we could revisit the OP , do you not even become slightly curious when you compare this 'evacuation' to that of the Volga Germans ? Both were basically carried out behind 'iron curtains' , geographically and politically. Yet we know considerably more about one than the other, and credible evidence exists for one and not the other . I would have thought any rationally minded person would arrive at the conclusion that the reason for this disparities was down to one of these evacuations being BOGUS ! especially if all the available evidence suggests that the camps were extermination camps, and that the Nazis were renowned for using 'euphemisms' and camouflaged wording., hence the Korherr Report makes perfect sense in what it is saying, ie 'evacuations' equated to murder , as did 'special treatment' (99% of the time).
I have pointed out that I regard this as a deceitful argument. A reversing of the burden of proof AND a 'moving the goalposts' obfuscation.
I find it quite revealing that you refuse to even pass comment on this comparison of 'evacuations'. I would have thought a comparison to an actual evacuation would be an ideal way of trying to determine the reality of an other evacuation that according to other evidence is BOGUS.
I am not that familiar with the experience of the Volga Germans. Even then I don't think it relevant to the claims of what occurred in Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Belzec andcSobibor, for the reason previously explained. Viz. that this is obfuscatory reversal of the burden of proof.
Here we have a prime example of a biased revisionist refusing to research a topic that he realises would produce awkward and inconvenient points that he would need to address. I find comparisons very informative, like comparisons of cremations of animals with humans, in order to understand a little more the extermination process at the AR camps . Maybe you find them useful too, unless they prove to be slightly inconvenient for you of course . Obviously this particular episode falls into this category, hence your reluctance to engage in or even acknowledge its relevance to the topic in question.
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm
been-there wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:34 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:20 am
So to answer your question then NO, I do not see the 'distinction' - because what you claim is in part false , or based on illogical standards of interpreting evidence/events/science.
Thanks for admitting that so clearly.
I suggest that your admitted inability to see the distinction is why you are a 'believer' in the narrative. You are one of many who cannot look at it unemotionally, rationally, logically, impartially, critically and scientifically. This admission I suggest shows that believing in the war-time mass-gassing allegation is a matter of faith for you, not reason.
I fail to see how you have arrived at such a conclusion.
Yes, I agree. You have failed to see how I arrived at that conclusion. And a simple question that bybanswering might have helped you, you have dodged repeatedly.
Lol !

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Huntinger
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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by Huntinger » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:14 am

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:19 pm
You may refer to Chelmno as off topic, but as I pointed out , the Chelmno Jews were all part of this bogus evacuation to the Russian East alongside the Jews from the AR camps, which makes them very much 'on topic' if we are to stick to discussing the main purpose of this thread.
Almost everything in this post is off topic; I am sure Depth Check
will examine this in due course. There was no evacuation of Juden to the Russian East, they were Evicted en masse.
Now perhaps the poster to save face may wish to discuss the Volga Deutscher Volk.?
𝕸𝖆𝖓𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝕾𝖈𝖍𝖆̈𝖙𝖟𝖊 𝖐𝖆𝖓𝖓 𝖒𝖆𝖓 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖐𝖆𝖚𝖋𝖊𝖓.

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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by been-there » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:49 am

Huntinger wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:14 am
Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:19 pm
You may refer to Chelmno as off topic, but as I pointed out , the Chelmno Jews were all part of this bogus evacuation to the Russian East alongside the Jews from the AR camps, which makes them very much 'on topic' if we are to stick to discussing the main purpose of this thread.
Almost everything in this post is off topic; I am sure Depth Check
will examine this in due course. There was no evacuation of Juden to the Russian East, they were Evicted en masse.
Now perhaps the poster to save face may wish to discuss the Volga Deutscher Volk.?
This topic thread isn't really about Volga Germans. Its about avoiding specific empirical facts concerning the fate of Jews during WW2 . It is attempting to avoid dealing with the fact that the existing empirical evidence refutes the holocaust mass-gassing genocide narrative that is alleged to have taken place at specific locations. It is attempting to avoid this fact with this comparison to Volga Germans.
Holocaust defenders have presumably realised that they can no longer argue credibly with the empirical evidence, so they have resorted to changing the subject. As I tried to explain to Blake, it is as though a grave that was worshipped as a memorial for decades was proven to be empty of any corpse. What is occurring is that instead of acknowledging and dealing with that fact, delusional people are insisting that anyone honest enough to admit there is no corpse in the grave should prove it by detailing where the corpse is instead. Which is clearly an illogical and delusional response.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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papasha
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Re: The Volga Germans - a genuine evacuation

Post by papasha » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:14 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:43 am
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am
been-there wrote:
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
...most of these people survived to tell their stories in books, newspapers, TV shows.
Which books, newspaper articles and TV shows exactly. Can you reference some for each category?
:lol: "if i deconstruct everything the other guy says i can't lose, prove you exist"
Ah. Ok. I take that to be an admission you just made that assertion up about books, newspapers articles and TV shows. Correct?
:lol:

now post some accounts from resettled jews
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am
been-there wrote:
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
And as they passed away the next generation of family still knows the history, still know where their great grandparents came from. And yet for these mythical resettled Jews its exactly 0.
Hmmm? Do you think you are being entirely honest about the fate of Jews in the Soviet sphere? E.g. are you familiar with the case of Henryk Tauber's brother Bendit?

(Henryk Tauber or Henryk Fuchsbrunner, also known as Henry Fuchs, etc., etc.)

See here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3955&start=200#p157400
You apparently accepted this and thanked him for his contribution
There is no "apparently" about it. I definitely DID do that, and you just saw it. Wow. You can't even admit that? :?
yeah, which is funny cause....
papasha wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:11 am
...I dont get it. You guys pathologize Jews so much as being immoral people who lie and fabricate the worst things to push their narrative, but then you still intentionally consciously shit all over this guy... ...I'm not necessarily saying you're a bad person... just seems like a scummy thing to do
:o How on Earth do you conclude that my response to that person was “intentionally consciously shitting all over this guy”??
exactly how i said. you're a holocaust denier meaning you say Germans didn't exterminate millions of Jews during ww2. you spoke with a man claiming to be Henryk Fuchsbrunner's son (sorry, not Benedit's, i misread) who said that 1) his uncle Benedit just managed to randomly jump the border into soviet occupied poland at the very start of the war and (i guess) must have been picked up by the security services for whatever reason because he ended up in prison, while his father Henryk managed to escape a death march out of Auschwitz. 2) the rest of their household of 11 people were killed by the Nazis, giving a death rate nearing 90%, ie, the death rate of the 3 million Polish Jews. You said you believed him.

After this, you proceed to spam this propaganda in various threads
7. some were transported to the Soviet Union where some died, some survived
and documentary evidence of this is still not released by the Soviets. (See Henryk Tauber's brother)
...as what happened to all these missing Jews. You take this one part of his family's larger story (one Polish Jew in the German occupied part escaped into the Soviet occupied part of Poland, and just by a stroke of "luck" was arrested and imprisoned in a forced labor camp in the USSR before the Germans invaded eastern poland too in 1941 and it would have been too late), misrepresent this single case with a vague statement that suggests there was some policy of "transporting" Jews out of Soviet Poland before Operation Barbarossa (leaving out the part about him being arrested, and a freak lucky case),which is of course parently false since most of these Jews on either side of the line didn't escape and ended up in the ghettos, and once the ghettos were liquidated they disapeared into labor or extermination camps such as the AR camps that were dismantled after a year.

tldr: you thank this poster for his account which includes how his Uncle survived the war by escaping and being captured by the Soviets, twist and use it for your own benefit if you think it helps your conspiracy theory , that he is otherwise lying about the bigger story of his father being a Sonderkommando in an actual extermination camp, and lying about the rest of his family on both his father and mother's side being killed in the holocaust which is apparently one big hoax. if thats not shitting on him and his family, i dont know what is.

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