Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

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Nessie
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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:25 am

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:12 am
Lemme' see if I have this straight, Nessie. You're claiming that since no eyewitness positively identified the make and model of the excavator that was allegedly used to dig the graves, that proves that the graves were excavated?
No.
Then we have you claiming that my calculations concerning the graves/stockpiles are an "argument (calculation?) from incredulity"? Geez, imagine that, folks. A mathematical calculation from incredulity. Whoda' thunk it?

No, my argument that the stockpiles of excavated material at T-2 would necessarily be 45-50 feet high doesn't collapse. My claim is that the M&H draglines didn't build any such stockpiles and neither did your mystery machine.
Are you claiming no excavator(s) that was available in 1942 to the Nazis, was capable of digging graves and stockpiling the earth next to them?
Are you trying to claim that the mystery machine had to exist since something built the 45-50 feet high stockpiles? The fact is that you have no evidence whatsoever of the existence of such a machine.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
I do have evidence an excavator was used at TII from multiple witnesses who speak to an excavator being used at the camp. There is supporting evidence from the physical evidence of a large area of disturbed ground. The only "mystery" was what make, model and type it was.

The use of an excavator at TII does not evidence if gassings took place or not
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:41 am

Nessie wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:25 am
I do have evidence an excavator was used at TII from multiple witnesses who speak to an excavator being used at the camp. There is supporting evidence from the physical evidence of a large area of disturbed ground. The only "mystery" was what make, model and type it was.

The use of an excavator at TII does not evidence if gassings took place or not
Eyewitness evidence is only anecdotal. There is no evidence only your speculation ground was disturbed but considering the camp was dismantled it is likely it would be scraped over. This thread has nothing to do with your pre-occupation with alleged gassing.
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Turnagain
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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Nessie wrote:
Are you claiming no excavator(s) that was available in 1942 to the Nazis, was capable of digging graves and stockpiling the earth next to them?
I do have evidence an excavator was used at TII from multiple witnesses who speak to an excavator being used at the camp.
So, Nessie claims that the Germans shipped an excavator to Treblinka that was large enough to dig the 32-39 feet deep pits and build stockpiles of the ex 45-50 feet high. Who said they saw those high in the sky stockpiles, Nessie? They certainly didn't show up in either Wiernik's or the Laponder models of T-2. You also fail to take into account that Rajchman's graves would have taken at least 10.5 acres of space in the totenlager.

Those stockpiles would have been almost three times as high as the guard towers. Why would the Germans build guard towers so the guards could sit and stare at mountains of dirt? None of your cockamamie story makes any sense, Nessie.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Mr. KnowItAll » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:33 pm

Turnagain, are you tapped in the head? There is no reason for you to keep posting the same BS.

Name the Nazis or eyewitnesses who mentioned the specific details about the excavator(s) used at Treblinka.

Until then you’re just guessing which is why no one is buying what you claim and everyone is taking what you post like a pinch of salt.

No doubt since you’re so predictable and behave like you have autism, you will just repeat the same things you have been doing since 2014!!!

The fact you can’t see how flawed your arguments are when held up to scrutiny just proves you’re a complete dunce.

How’s your anti-semitic racist demented head doing? Do you still think the Jews are to blame for everything, especially your sad and pathetic life?
"It was the first time I had seen Hitler close at hand. Face and head of inferior type, cross-breed; low receding forehead, ugly nose, broad cheekbones, little eyes, dark hair. Expression not of a man exercising authority in perfect self-command, but of raving excitement. At the end an expression of satisfied egotism."

- Max von Gruber's description of Hitler at the Beer Hall Putsch trial in 1923

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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:54 pm

Mr. KnowItAll wrote:
Name the Nazis or eyewitnesses who mentioned the specific details about the excavator(s) used at Treblinka.
OK, here are some of the organizations/people who claimed that the draglines from T-1 were used to dig the graves at T-2. The Jewish Virtual Library (JVL), Yitzhak Arad, historian and author of, "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka" and ARC, of http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/photos.html All declared that the dragline(s) from T-1 were used to dig the graves at T-2 and the only draglines at T-1 were Menck & Hambrock. Photos show a M&H Ma and a M&H Mb at T-1. Specifications were taken from the M&H equipment specifications charts. AFAIK, there weren't any National Socialists, Ukrainian guards or eyewitnesses who identified the equipment used to dig the graves as being M&H. That is most likely due to the fact that no draglines were used to excavate the nonexistent graves at Treblinka.
Until then you’re just guessing which is why no one is buying what you claim and everyone is taking what you post like a pinch of salt.
No, there's no "guessing" about the fact that neither one of the M&H draglines could have both dug and stockpiled the ex from the 10X25X50 meter graves as described by Wiernik or the even larger graves described by Rajchman. That is what is known as a "fact", KnowItAll. No guessing involved. It's also a fact that the stockpiles of ex, if built around two sides of the graves as shown in Wiernik's model, would have to be about 45 feet high for Wiernik's graves and at least 50 feet high for Rajchman's graves. Are you going to claim that some mystery machine dug and stockpiled the ex from the graves as Nessie has done?
The fact you can’t see how flawed your arguments are when held up to scrutiny just proves you’re a complete dunce.
Does your "scrutiny" depend on the existence of a mystery machine, KnowItAll? It's a demonstrable fact that the M&H dragline didn't dig and stockpile the ex from the mass graves so what "scrutiny" are you talking about? Since you are apparently as innumerate as Nessie, how do you intend to scrutinize my calculations? Once again, are you claiming that some mystery machine both dug and stockpiled the ex from the mass graves at Treblinka?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Mr. KnowItAll » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:39 am

None of those you mentioned any Nazis or eyewitnesses who mentioned the specific details of the excavator(s). You listed secondary sources which have speculated which excavators were used. Do you not understand the difference? I asked you to name the Nazis or eyewitnesses who mentioned the special details, not just guessing like you enjoy doing time and time again.

Have you even read Arad’s book? I doubt it.

Again, Blake and Nessie have told you how those size graves could have been dug. Quit pretending to be an expert in a field you know nothing about at all.
"It was the first time I had seen Hitler close at hand. Face and head of inferior type, cross-breed; low receding forehead, ugly nose, broad cheekbones, little eyes, dark hair. Expression not of a man exercising authority in perfect self-command, but of raving excitement. At the end an expression of satisfied egotism."

- Max von Gruber's description of Hitler at the Beer Hall Putsch trial in 1923

Turnagain
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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:23 am

Mr. KnowItAll wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:39 am
None of those you mentioned any Nazis or eyewitnesses who mentioned the specific details of the excavator(s). You listed secondary sources which have speculated which excavators were used. Do you not understand the difference? I asked you to name the Nazis or eyewitnesses who mentioned the special details, not just guessing like you enjoy doing time and time again.

Have you even read Arad’s book? I doubt it.

Again, Blake and Nessie have told you how those size graves could have been dug. Quit pretending to be an expert in a field you know nothing about at all.
Oooookay, once more for the terminally thick. The JVL et al. are secondary sources that said that the M&H draglines dug the graves. I SAID that, AFAIK (that stands for, "as far as I know) none of the National Socialists or Ukrainians or eyewitnesses gave the make and model of the excavator that supposedly dug the graves. However, the JVL et al. are credible sources so I've proved that the M&H dragline DID NOT dig and stockpile the ex from the graves. Got it? Blake stated that the M&H dragline couldn't excavate a pit 25 meters/82.5 feet wide. Nessie's explanation for how the M&H dragline dug a 25 meter wide pit is just plain bullshit. Can you comprehend that?

I have proved that the stockpile built around two sides of each grave would necessarily be 45-50 feet high using the dimensions for the graves given by Wiernik and Rajchman. Can you understand that? Since the M&H equipment didn't dig and stockpile the ex from the graves, are you saying that some mystery machine performed that task? No eyewitness positively identified the M&H dragline so are you assuming that some other equipment dug the graves?

Why would the eeevul Narzis refuse to use perfectly suitable machinery to dig a larger number of more reasonably sized graves and go to the time and expense of shipping a very large piece of equipment to a backwater transit camp to dig giant graves? Is there any evidence of such a mystery machine? If Franz took photos of the M&H draglines, why wouldn't he have taken some photos of a much more impressive piece of equipment? You seem to be saying that since the eyewitnesses didn't identify the equipment used, it proves that the graves were excavated and the ex stockpiled as claimed. None of your claptrap makes any sense.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Nessie
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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:25 am

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:16 pm
Nessie wrote:
Are you claiming no excavator(s) that was available in 1942 to the Nazis, was capable of digging graves and stockpiling the earth next to them?
I do have evidence an excavator was used at TII from multiple witnesses who speak to an excavator being used at the camp.
So, Nessie claims that the Germans shipped an excavator to Treblinka that was large enough to dig the 32-39 feet deep pits and build stockpiles of the ex 45-50 feet high. Who said they saw those high in the sky stockpiles, Nessie? They certainly didn't show up in either Wiernik's or the Laponder models of T-2. You also fail to take into account that Rajchman's graves would have taken at least 10.5 acres of space in the totenlager.

Those stockpiles would have been almost three times as high as the guard towers. Why would the Germans build guard towers so the guards could sit and stare at mountains of dirt? None of your cockamamie story makes any sense, Nessie.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
What does not make sense is your illogical argument, whereby you take witnesses who you do not believe, you then take what they said literally, with no cognisance of potential errors and exaggerations and create an argument from incredulity. You then demand belief in what you cannot evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:30 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:25 am
What does not make sense is your illogical argument, whereby you take witnesses who you do not believe, you then take what they said literally, with no cognizance of potential errors and exaggerations and create an argument from incredulity. You then demand belief in what you cannot evidence.
This is off topic and an opinion which adds nothing to the thread intention. Another spiel on evidencing without adding to the topic with evidence of its own. I would like to know if you have any knowledge of the excavator used not your darn thoughts on epistemology.
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Turnagain
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Re: Which excavator was used at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:05 am

Nessie wrote:
What does not make sense is your illogical argument, whereby you take witnesses who you do not believe, you then take what they said literally, with no cognisance of potential errors and exaggerations and create an argument from incredulity. You then demand belief in what you cannot evidence.
(sigh) No, I take what the witnesses say and challenge their credibility. The witnesses say this or that and I prove that they are lying. You are saying that I should make allowances for their lies. Wiernik built a model that bears no relationship whatsoever to the real world and you say that it's "just a matter of scale". I should make an "allowance" while the most obvious explanation is that he lied. He didn't see any mass graves and stockpiles of ex.

You say that some unspecified giant excavator dug the graves and built the 45-50 foot high stockpiles of ex. It was shipped into T-2 to dig the graves and exhume the bodies and was then shipped out. Why wouldn't the eeevul Narzis simply use their perfectly serviceable draglines to dig a series of more reasonably sized graves away from the totenlager and the well, their source of drinking water? The wacky claims of the so-called eyewitnesses and your attempts to substantiate them are ludicrous.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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