Aerial photo Treblinka II

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Nessie
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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:03 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:26 pm
Nessie wrote:
Please provide me with evidence to show that the Nazis dug up large parts of TII for a reason other than digging mass graves, then exhuming the bodies, cremating them, reburying them and covering the camp over with more earth.
The claims made by the communist functionary, Lukaszkiewicz, are unsubstantiated yet you demand that we take his unproved word as gospel truth. You claim that C S-C found human cremains on the surface at Treblinka but neither quantify nor offer laboratory testing that the unquantified remains/cremains are of human origin. The hermetically sealed gas chamber is an impossibility. The mass graves as described by Wiernik have been proven not to exist. See Wiernik's model. The magic Jew barbeque is a proven impossibility. Where is your proof that the Germans gassed, buried, exhumed and cremated at least 713,555 people? You haven't any such proof.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
You don't need to keep on repeating your disbelief of the evidence I have presented. I get it. Could we move the debate on? Why did the Nazis dig up TII and leave it as shown in the aerial photo and leave TI in a completely different state?

TI

Image

TII

Image

The main difference are that TI has large areas where the ground has no vegetation and is earth, which is due to the ground being walked over and compacted, not dug up and disturbed. TI also has its buildings left rather than razed to the ground. There is also no sign of TI have been planted over, unlike parts of TII.

Please explain, with evidence the difference.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:06 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:02 pm
Nessie wrote:
The problem for denial is that ALL the witnesses who worked inside TII state there was gassings, burials and cremations.
That is akin to saying that you have witnesses who testified that the moon is a large helium filled balloon floating in the sky. That isn't proof that the moon is a large helium filled balloon. That only proves that large numbers of witnesses can be wrong or, in the case of Treblinka, witnesses are lying for reasons of their own.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
Or it is proof that the witnesses are telling the truth. When those accused of a crime agree with the victims of the crime, that is strong corroborative evidence. When witnesses come from different countries and were there at different times and so they did not all meet and they all agree, that is also strong corroborative evidence.

The physical evidence from TII also corroborates the witnesses.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:25 pm

Nessie wrote:
Why did the Nazis dig up TII and leave it as shown in the aerial photo and leave TI in a completely different state?
I'll leave such idle speculation up to you, Nessie. Meanwhile, what are your grounds for asserting that the witnesses were "mistaken" about the hermetically sealed gas chambers?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:33 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:25 pm
Nessie wrote:
Why did the Nazis dig up TII and leave it as shown in the aerial photo and leave TI in a completely different state?
I'll leave such idle speculation up to you, Nessie. Meanwhile, what are your grounds for asserting that the witnesses were "mistaken" about the hermetically sealed gas chambers?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
It s not idle speculation, is is in the aerial photo that TI and TII were left in very different states. TII was heavily dug over and TI was not. Why did the Nazis do so much digging inside TII and then try and cover it up by planting over it?

I have already answered the question about witnesses and the hermetic seal on numerous occasions. It is off topic in this topic about the aerial photo.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:37 pm

Nessie wrote:
Or it is proof that the witnesses are telling the truth. When those accused of a crime agree with the victims of the crime, that is strong corroborative evidence.
The Nuremberg marsupial escapades and subsequent holyhoax trials took judicial notice of the holyhoax. Claiming that the holyhoax was a fraud was not an option. Same as current German courts. The best that the German witnesses could do was try to mitigate their involvement in the "actual" murders and hope for a dismissal or a more lenient sentence. They had to go along with the helium filled balloon narrative.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:41 pm

Nessie wrote:
It s not idle speculation...
Is too. The thread is about the aerial photo of T-2.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

Edit.
Note how carefully Nessie avoids giving any quantity for the amount of alleged bones/cremains found by C S-C at Treblinka. Note how carefully he avoids the question about authenticating those alleged bones/cremains.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by blake121666 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:19 pm

Nessie wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:09 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:33 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:33 pm

Both the Polish and Staffs Uni found large areas of disturbed ground at TII.

Those areas are not precisely the same, due to changes to the camp in the intervening years with the construction of the monument and the spread of trees and other vegetation.

The aerial photo from 1944 is what the Poles found in 1945 and that shows the 2 hectares.
Nessie, 2 hectares is 2 hectares at any time. It is an area on the surface of the Earth. Tell me where on the surface of the Earth today were the Poles' 2 hectares. If you like, you may claim changes have been made to that particular surface area, but where are those 2 hectares? Was it a contiguous 2 hectares - or a sum of disjoint areas?
I already quoted you the detail, here is the whole quoted section;

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

""With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the foundations of the camp's domestic economics building and the site of the well. Here and there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains of barbed wire. There are also some sections of paved walks that remain. Nonetheless, there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp. In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum - enamel - glass and porcelain dishes - kitchen utensils - hand luggage - rucksacks - pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property."

So, the northwestern part of TII and it was one area.
Then tell me EXACT corroborations between what the Poles found and what CSC found. None of this, DUH, the Poles found pits and CSC found pits. Duh. Derp derp. Surely you're not saying that the Poles 2 hectares is NOT 2 hectares anymore - but now 1 hectare?

Keep in mind that we wish to know where 700,000+ corpses were placed. The question to US is where those 700,000+ corpses were. I am well aware that was not so much a question for others - including CSC - but that is what WE HERE wish to know.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that it is YOU who is making claims about 2 hectares. It is you who keeps specifically mentioning the Poles' 2 hectares. What 2 hectares are YOU talking about - on the surface of the Earth today?
I do not have detail about exactly where the Poles excavated, so cannot match it to where Staffs Uni carried out their surveys. The point is that both surveys found at the site of TII, large areas of disturbed ground and cremated remains. That is corroboration.
You can't be this retarded. There is no 2 hectare area of 7.5m deep pits, retard. CSC has investigated the area and found the pits she found. The 1 hectare concreted-over section was not investigated - nor any of the other concreted-over areas - nor the treed areas at the time. That Polish Report was mistaken about everything - including where in the camp the alleged "mixture of ashes and sand" could have been - if they even were there at all. It said "northwestern section of the area", btw, not the entire camp. You'd need to define what was meant by "the area" there, dumbo.

Don't reply with more retarded drivel. Obviously there is no 2 hectare area at the T2 site under which was mostly 7.5m deep pits. If there were, CSC would have found it. I gave you this:

Image

Obviously that WHOLE cleared area is only a little more than 2 hectares.

I could see if you would at least ATTEMPT to make sense of things - but you obviously won't even do that.

Nessie is obviously trolling. I asked him to specifically place the 2 hectares and he comes back with this gibberish.

Why is Nessie wasting his and everyone else's time here?

EDIT: Not only that, but it's ridiculously the case that his arguments against Revisionist arguments are ridiculous arguments that a defender of the Holocaust would never make. All he produces is nonsensical bickering - of no interest to either side.

EDIT 2: And "Staffs Uni" :roll: (read Colls "acknowledgements" - this was not a "Staffs Uni" project - it was her PhD project) DID NOT find "large areas of disturbed ground and cremated remains". What was found were relatively SMALL areas of possible pits and NO "cremated remains" other than some unspecified amount seen on the surface.
Last edited by blake121666 on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by blake121666 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:30 pm

For everyone's information, in this picture:

Image

You are seeing lupines and grass in those dark areas.

EDIT: reference: Chapter III of Mattogno and Graf "Treblink, Extermination Camp or Transit Camp" - read through all of the postwar investigations.

EDIT 2:
Soviet commision report 8/24/44 wrote:The Germans attempted to delete the traces of their atrocities. After the
revolt of the Jews they destroyed all camp buildings, which were still intact
after the fire. Oats, rye, and lupines were now planted on the grounds of
the former ‘death camp.’
R. Auerbach - 1/46 wrote:While the Germans were still here, the whole area had been plowed up
and sown with lupine grass. And the lupine grass really grew and covered
the whole surface with a green mask. It looked as if all the traces of the
crimes had been wiped away. But since then, during the past year, the human
jackals and hyenas have been coming to the burial ground and here is
the picture that we saw:

Here and there, like patches of grass near the seashore, half-covered by
the shifting sands, there were still little clumps of withered lupine. Not one
level place in the whole area. Everything had been torn up and dug up, little
hills and holes. ...
So around 8/24/44 and before there were lupines and grass in those areas - later destroyed by scavengers.

Image

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:42 am

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:41 pm
Nessie wrote:
It s not idle speculation...
Is too. The thread is about the aerial photo of T-2.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
The aerial photo that shows both camps is evidence that TII was treated very differently to TI and it was heavily dug over.

Stop dodging answering questions as to why that happened.
Edit.
Note how carefully Nessie avoids giving any quantity for the amount of alleged bones/cremains found by C S-C at Treblinka. Note how carefully he avoids the question about authenticating those alleged bones/cremains.
Off topic, but again the answers are a small amount of cremains were found during a walk over survey, the precise amount has not been quantified that I can then tell you what it was. The authentication was done by qualified forensic scientists and archaeologists at TII itself, by a visual and physical examination. You have been told that before.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:58 am

blake121666 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:19 pm
Nessie wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:09 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:33 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:33 pm

Both the Polish and Staffs Uni found large areas of disturbed ground at TII.

Those areas are not precisely the same, due to changes to the camp in the intervening years with the construction of the monument and the spread of trees and other vegetation.

The aerial photo from 1944 is what the Poles found in 1945 and that shows the 2 hectares.
Nessie, 2 hectares is 2 hectares at any time. It is an area on the surface of the Earth. Tell me where on the surface of the Earth today were the Poles' 2 hectares. If you like, you may claim changes have been made to that particular surface area, but where are those 2 hectares? Was it a contiguous 2 hectares - or a sum of disjoint areas?
I already quoted you the detail, here is the whole quoted section;

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

""With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the foundations of the camp's domestic economics building and the site of the well. Here and there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains of barbed wire. There are also some sections of paved walks that remain. Nonetheless, there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp. In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum - enamel - glass and porcelain dishes - kitchen utensils - hand luggage - rucksacks - pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property."

So, the northwestern part of TII and it was one area.
Then tell me EXACT corroborations between what the Poles found and what CSC found. None of this, DUH, the Poles found pits and CSC found pits. Duh. Derp derp. Surely you're not saying that the Poles 2 hectares is NOT 2 hectares anymore - but now 1 hectare?

Keep in mind that we wish to know where 700,000+ corpses were placed. The question to US is where those 700,000+ corpses were. I am well aware that was not so much a question for others - including CSC - but that is what WE HERE wish to know.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that it is YOU who is making claims about 2 hectares. It is you who keeps specifically mentioning the Poles' 2 hectares. What 2 hectares are YOU talking about - on the surface of the Earth today?
I do not have detail about exactly where the Poles excavated, so cannot match it to where Staffs Uni carried out their surveys. The point is that both surveys found at the site of TII, large areas of disturbed ground and cremated remains. That is corroboration.
You can't be this retarded. There is no 2 hectare area of 7.5m deep pits, retard.
When the Polish survey the site in 1945, they recorded a 2 hectare area that was recorded, as shown above as "a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding."

They also excavated and found at up to 7.5m that there were buried remains;

"Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[[208]] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here."
CSC has investigated the area and found the pits she found. The 1 hectare concreted-over section was not investigated - nor any of the other concreted-over areas - nor the treed areas at the time. That Polish Report was mistaken about everything - including where in the camp the alleged "mixture of ashes and sand" could have been - if they even were there at all. It said "northwestern section of the area", btw, not the entire camp. You'd need to define what was meant by "the area" there, dumbo.

Don't reply with more retarded drivel. Obviously there is no 2 hectare area at the T2 site under which was mostly 7.5m deep pits. If there were, CSC would have found it.
There have been significant changes to the camp since that 1945 survey. The monument has been built, the site is no longer littered with obvious human remains, there is no more grave robbing and use of explosives, there has been a lot of growth of trees and other vegetation.

That is why the Staffs Uni survey, which was with equipment not available to the Poles in 1945, covers different parts of the camp and less remains were found.
I gave you this:

Image

Obviously that WHOLE cleared area is only a little more than 2 hectares.

I could see if you would at least ATTEMPT to make sense of things - but you obviously won't even do that.

Nessie is obviously trolling. I asked him to specifically place the 2 hectares and he comes back with this gibberish.

Why is Nessie wasting his and everyone else's time here?

EDIT: Not only that, but it's ridiculously the case that his arguments against Revisionist arguments are ridiculous arguments that a defender of the Holocaust would never make. All he produces is nonsensical bickering - of no interest to either side.

EDIT 2: And "Staffs Uni" :roll: (read Colls "acknowledgements" - this was not a "Staffs Uni" project - it was her PhD project) DID NOT find "large areas of disturbed ground and cremated remains". What was found were relatively SMALL areas of possible pits and NO "cremated remains" other than some unspecified amount seen on the surface.
The Polish and Staffs Uni work do not corroborate each other down to finding exactly the same at the camp in 1945 and again in 2011, because of all the intervening changes to the camp.

The Polish excavated into already exposed areas of human and cremated remains. Staffs Uni did not excavate and only recorded some cremated remains on the camp surface, which has been memorialised and protected from grave robbing, so is in a far more respectful state and no longer littered with decomposing remains.

Staff Uni used underground survey equipment not available to the Poles. The Poles had far greater access as there was no memorial and far less trees and other vegetation.

Both the Poles and Staffs Uni recorded large areas of disturbed ground and that there are cremated remains at TII. They corroborate each other and the witnesses who say there had been a lot of excavation to bury, then exhume, then cremate, then rebury the remains.

Denial has no explanation as to why the Nazis did that and buried cremated remains do not corroborate denial claims of no gassings and those sent to TII then left.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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