Aerial photo Treblinka II

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by been-there » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:44 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:55 am
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:16 pm
So, Nessie, are you claiming that you have PROOF of the mass graves or not? A simple "yes" or "no" will do quite nicely. Blather about photographs of "rectangles" or "disturbed ground" is irrelevant.
Yes.
I have witness evidence, photographic evidence and physical evidence, all of which you have already been shown.
Please show the "physical evidence" proving that over 700,000 bodies were buried in mass-graves at Treblinka by 1942.

The intercepted and Bletchley-decoded communication from Höfle is supposed to be proof that the total number of Jews murdered at Treblinka 2 up until the end of 1942 was 713,555. The lie-witnesses say that up until this time the Jews who arrived at Treblinka 2 were murdered then buried.

If we assume that 8 bodies could fit in one cubic metre, you need a mass grave of 89,194m3. (713,555 ÷ 8 = 89,194)

If we assume that 12 bodies could fit in one cubic metre, you need a mass grave of 59,462m3. (713,555 ÷ 12 = 59,462)

Image

If we gauge by looking at this photo then I think we can assume that these figures are way too generous. It looks like approximately only 3 to 4 bodies could fit in one cubic metre. (713,555 ÷ 4 = 178,388)
So that would require a mass-grave of 178,388m3.

Whichever estimate you use, please show "physical evidence" of ground disturbance at Treblinka that would account for mass-graves that were in total between 59,000 to 178,000 cubic metres.
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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:14 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:55 am
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:16 pm
So, Nessie, are you claiming that you have PROOF of the mass graves or not? A simple "yes" or "no" will do quite nicely. Blather about photographs of "rectangles" or "disturbed ground" is irrelevant.
Yes.

I have witness evidence, photographic evidence and physical evidence, all of which you have already been shown.
IOW, you have no proof of the mass graves.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by blake121666 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:33 pm

Nessie wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:33 pm

Both the Polish and Staffs Uni found large areas of disturbed ground at TII.

Those areas are not precisely the same, due to changes to the camp in the intervening years with the construction of the monument and the spread of trees and other vegetation.

The aerial photo from 1944 is what the Poles found in 1945 and that shows the 2 hectares.
Nessie, 2 hectares is 2 hectares at any time. It is an area on the surface of the Earth. Tell me where on the surface of the Earth today were the Poles' 2 hectares. If you like, you may claim changes have been made to that particular surface area, but where are those 2 hectares? Was it a contiguous 2 hectares - or a sum of disjoint areas?

Then tell me EXACT corroborations between what the Poles found and what CSC found. None of this, DUH, the Poles found pits and CSC found pits. Duh. Derp derp. Surely you're not saying that the Poles 2 hectares is NOT 2 hectares anymore - but now 1 hectare?

Keep in mind that we wish to know where 700,000+ corpses were placed. The question to US is where those 700,000+ corpses were. I am well aware that was not so much a question for others - including CSC - but that is what WE HERE wish to know.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that it is YOU who is making claims about 2 hectares. It is you who keeps specifically mentioning the Poles' 2 hectares. What 2 hectares are YOU talking about - on the surface of the Earth today?

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:01 pm

been-there wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:44 am
Nessie wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:55 am
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:16 pm
So, Nessie, are you claiming that you have PROOF of the mass graves or not? A simple "yes" or "no" will do quite nicely. Blather about photographs of "rectangles" or "disturbed ground" is irrelevant.
Yes.
I have witness evidence, photographic evidence and physical evidence, all of which you have already been shown.
Please show the "physical evidence" proving that over 700,000 bodies were buried in mass-graves at Treblinka by 1942.
I have repeatedly linked to the physical evidence available to me online. The prime sources are the two reports, from 1945 here;

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

and Staffs Uni work, most of which is detailed here;

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/35 ... s12PhD.pdf
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... treblinka/

It shows what was left behind by the Nazis after they closed the camp and razed it to the ground. The physical evidence is not how we achieve a body count, since the Nazis prevented that from happening by exhuming and cremating the bodies.
The intercepted and Bletchley-decoded communication from Höfle is supposed to be proof that the total number of Jews murdered at Treblinka 2 up until the end of 1942 was 713,555.
It is documentary evidence from Hofle, Korherr, Zabecki and Stroop and transport and ghetto records that provide us with how many were sent to the camp and from that approximately how many were killed and buried there.
The lie-witnesses say that up until this time the Jews who arrived at Treblinka 2 were murdered then buried.
The problem for denial is that ALL the witnesses who worked inside TII state there was gassings, burials and cremations. It is remarkable that no witness claimed anything else.

Denial likes to suggest that all the witnesses have somehow been encouraged or manipulated to lie, but that is a claim which denial cannot evidence.
If we assume that 8 bodies could fit in one cubic metre, you need a mass grave of 89,194m3. (713,555 ÷ 8 = 89,194)

If we assume that 12 bodies could fit in one cubic metre, you need a mass grave of 59,462m3. (713,555 ÷ 12 = 59,462)

Image

If we gauge by looking at this photo then I think we can assume that these figures are way too generous. It looks like approximately only 3 to 4 bodies could fit in one cubic metre. (713,555 ÷ 4 = 178,388)
So that would require a mass-grave of 178,388m3.
You need to take into account that people were being buried for months on end, so bodies at the bottom of the pits were decomposing and subject to a lot of pressure. That increases the capacity.
Whichever estimate you use, please show "physical evidence" of ground disturbance at Treblinka that would account for mass-graves that were in total between 59,000 to 178,000 cubic metres.
According to the Polish Report in 1945, there is at least 2 hectares of disturbed ground, up to 7.5m deep, where mass graves were located. That is 20,000m2 x 7.5m deep or 150,000m3.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:02 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:14 am
Nessie wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:55 am
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:16 pm
So, Nessie, are you claiming that you have PROOF of the mass graves or not? A simple "yes" or "no" will do quite nicely. Blather about photographs of "rectangles" or "disturbed ground" is irrelevant.
Yes.

I have witness evidence, photographic evidence and physical evidence, all of which you have already been shown.
IOW, you have no proof of the mass graves.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
No, I have evidence which corroborates and proves mass graves. You are the one who has no evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Nessie wrote:
No, I have evidence which corroborates and proves mass graves.
You have no proof of any mass graves at Treblinka as described by Wiernik et al. Your "evidence" is equivocal at best.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:09 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:33 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:33 pm

Both the Polish and Staffs Uni found large areas of disturbed ground at TII.

Those areas are not precisely the same, due to changes to the camp in the intervening years with the construction of the monument and the spread of trees and other vegetation.

The aerial photo from 1944 is what the Poles found in 1945 and that shows the 2 hectares.
Nessie, 2 hectares is 2 hectares at any time. It is an area on the surface of the Earth. Tell me where on the surface of the Earth today were the Poles' 2 hectares. If you like, you may claim changes have been made to that particular surface area, but where are those 2 hectares? Was it a contiguous 2 hectares - or a sum of disjoint areas?
I already quoted you the detail, here is the whole quoted section;

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

""With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the foundations of the camp's domestic economics building and the site of the well. Here and there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains of barbed wire. There are also some sections of paved walks that remain. Nonetheless, there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp. In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum - enamel - glass and porcelain dishes - kitchen utensils - hand luggage - rucksacks - pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property."

So, the northwestern part of TII and it was one area.
Then tell me EXACT corroborations between what the Poles found and what CSC found. None of this, DUH, the Poles found pits and CSC found pits. Duh. Derp derp. Surely you're not saying that the Poles 2 hectares is NOT 2 hectares anymore - but now 1 hectare?

Keep in mind that we wish to know where 700,000+ corpses were placed. The question to US is where those 700,000+ corpses were. I am well aware that was not so much a question for others - including CSC - but that is what WE HERE wish to know.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that it is YOU who is making claims about 2 hectares. It is you who keeps specifically mentioning the Poles' 2 hectares. What 2 hectares are YOU talking about - on the surface of the Earth today?
I do not have detail about exactly where the Poles excavated, so cannot match it to where Staffs Uni carried out their surveys. The point is that both surveys found at the site of TII, large areas of disturbed ground and cremated remains. That is corroboration.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Nessie » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:11 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Nessie wrote:
No, I have evidence which corroborates and proves mass graves.
You have no proof of any mass graves at Treblinka as described by Wiernik et al. Your "evidence" is equivocal at best.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
Please provide me with evidence to show that the Nazis dug up large parts of TII for a reason other than digging mass graves, then exhuming the bodies, cremating them, reburying them and covering the camp over with more earth.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:26 pm

Nessie wrote:
Please provide me with evidence to show that the Nazis dug up large parts of TII for a reason other than digging mass graves, then exhuming the bodies, cremating them, reburying them and covering the camp over with more earth.
The claims made by the communist functionary, Lukaszkiewicz, are unsubstantiated yet you demand that we take his unproved word as gospel truth. You claim that C S-C found human cremains on the surface at Treblinka but neither quantify nor offer laboratory testing that the unquantified remains/cremains are of human origin. The hermetically sealed gas chamber is an impossibility. The mass graves as described by Wiernik have been proven not to exist. See Wiernik's model. The magic Jew barbeque is a proven impossibility. Where is your proof that the Germans gassed, buried, exhumed and cremated at least 713,555 people? You haven't any such proof.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: Aerial photo Treblinka II

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:02 pm

Nessie wrote:
The problem for denial is that ALL the witnesses who worked inside TII state there was gassings, burials and cremations.
That is akin to saying that you have witnesses who testified that the moon is a large helium filled balloon floating in the sky. That isn't proof that the moon is a large helium filled balloon. That only proves that large numbers of witnesses can be wrong or, in the case of Treblinka, witnesses are lying for reasons of their own.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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