WW2 is a complex subject

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Bigfoot
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Bigfoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:15 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:02 pm
The denialist case is ridiculously weak. How do you not see that?
I think the case for denying a genocide on the Jews is indeed weak, however, the case if the genocide is a holocaust, I think that case is also weak.

For the following reasons
A. There was no plan to kill all Jews on the world
B. There was no fuhrer befehl to kill all the Jews
C. There was no budget to kill all the Jews
D. There are some documents which mentioned liquidating innocent Jews, but that is not a holocaust
E. There is no evidence for digging up 800.000 Jews in Treblinca on a small stroke of land, and burn them on rails above a fire. Both claims are impossible
F. If you accept that Jews transported to AR camps were liquidated (e.g. in Getto or other camps in Russia) that means only a part of the Jews and only in a time frame with ends by closing the AR camps were killed. That is no Holocaust
G. Jews survived in other camps, even in Auschwitz and even children and baby's. That also do not support an alleged holocaust
H.Hitler made an attachment on the Wannsee notes, that a final solution for the Jews had to wait after the war via Hans Lammers
I. In the beginning, the Germans tried to force the Jews to emigrate, e.g. to Palestina, by means of antisemitic laws and even by working together with zionists, also not supporting a plan to kill all the Jews

But I must acknowledge that denying a genocide on the Jews is almost impossible, however, we do not see mass graves supporting the claim of 2 million Jews shot in the east. So a lot is still hidden about how they died or even were killed .

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Nessie
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:31 pm

Bigfoot wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:15 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:02 pm
The denialist case is ridiculously weak. How do you not see that?
I think the case for denying a genocide on the Jews is indeed weak, however, the case if the genocide is a holocaust, I think that case is also weak.

For the following reasons
A. There was no plan to kill all Jews on the world
Wannsee and the Korherr Report show planning for an ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Jews.
B. There was no fuhrer befehl to kill all the Jews
There are reports he knew and approved.
C. There was no budget to kill all the Jews
There must have been money set aside for Action Reinhard and to create the Einsatzgruppen.
D. There are some documents which mentioned liquidating innocent Jews, but that is not a holocaust
It shows the motive and intention.
E. There is no evidence for digging up 800.000 Jews in Treblinca on a small stroke of land, and burn them on rails above a fire. Both claims are impossible
It is not impossible to exhume and cremate. Deniers just think it could not have happened as described, which is a logical fallacy.
F. If you accept that Jews transported to AR camps were liquidated (e.g. in Getto or other camps in Russia) that means only a part of the Jews and only in a time frame with ends by closing the AR camps were killed. That is no Holocaust
Yes it is.
G. Jews survived in other camps, even in Auschwitz and even children and baby's. That also do not support an alleged holocaust
The narrative is that locally commanders had options as to what to do to get rid of the Jewish population. In some countries the Jews were more protected than others. There was competing demands for Jews as workers and to get rid of them.
H.Hitler made an attachment on the Wannsee notes, that a final solution for the Jews had to wait after the war via Hans Lammers
Meanwhile, local commanders were just getting on with it.
I. In the beginning, the Germans tried to force the Jews to emigrate, e.g. to Palestina, by means of antisemitic laws and even by working together with zionists, also not supporting a plan to kill all the Jews
The planning and policy developed and changed.
But I must acknowledge that denying a genocide on the Jews is almost impossible, however, we do not see mass graves supporting the claim of 2 million Jews shot in the east. So a lot is still hidden about how they died or even were killed .
The Nazis cremated as many bodies as possible, to prevent body counts, identification and establishing cause of death.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Bigfoot » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:34 pm

@Nessie
A: Korherr report and Wannsee report indeed deals with ethnic cleaning. But the holocaust is an unique genocide, intend to kill all the Jews on the world in killing factory's. So A is not an holocaust.

B. Even Hillberg had to admit during the Zundel trial there was no fuhrer befehl to holocaust the Jews. He even re-edit his book and correct this mistake
C. Action Reinhardt was planned as a transit camp for ethnic cleansing. Einsatzgruppe was planned as a counter force to eliminate the partisan killings, Germans were cruel murdered by partisans (according to russian documents 500.000), so the Germans tried to attack those groups. There are documents telling that einsatzgruppe killed Jewish civilians only, but the question is how genuine these documents are, because they were not backed up with forensic evidence and mass graves. Yes, a lot of Jews (and also communists) were killed by einsatzgruppe. But that is not an holocaust. Where are the mass graves of 2 million body's?

D. See C
E. It is impossible as explained many times
F. If it is proven that Jews transported to the east were liquidated, it is a genocide comparable with other genocides, but not an holocaust to kill all the Jews, because the Jews transported not to the east survived in large amounts and were healed in hospitals if they were sick, even in Auschwitz, where even many baby's were born. At the end of the war, the Germans try to save these Jews from the Russian army.

G. See F
H. According to a hypothese of David Irving, a possibility could be that the commanders in the east, acting on their own behalf decided to liquidate Jews because they had not means to feed them. If that is true, then there was not a central plan, which is needed for a holocaust. Because the holocaust was an organised plan to exterminate the Jews in killing factory's just because they were Jews.

I. Not logical, first a forced emigration then a plan, which is never be found, to kill the Jews in killing factory's

In the worst case the Jewish Holocaust is nothing more then a genocide comparable with an Armenian genocide or an Holodomor. And even that is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

But I do not belong to those deniers claiming that nothing happened with the Jews, accept that many died of tyfus in camps and some were liquidated because of anti partisan actions. I do believe that more happened, because a lot of Jews perished in the east, but not an holocaust.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:26 am

There was indeed no plan to kill all the Jews. The plan was to remove all the Jews, the means of doing that varied.

The public, pre war plan, as with the Nuremberg Laws, was to identify and separate Jews from society and ban them from large parts of it. Many were allowed to emigrate, but they had to leave their property behind. Many escaped the persecution. Once war started the Jews were ghettoised and imprisoned and totally removed from the rest of society.

The more secretive plan that started during the war, as shown by Wannsee, was to use Jews as slave labour until they perished.

The most secret plan, Action Reinhard and hinted at in Wannsee, was to kill those not useful for work.

But there were also variations in enforcement and other plans, for example;

- the idea of Jewish emigration to Madagascar.
- the Danish Jews were able to escape overnight to Sweden.
- some countries were highly organised at handing over their Jews to the Nazis than others. The Dutch were very organised.
- some countries were split, so the rural Hungarian Jews were handed over, but the Jews in Budapest were generally protected.
- some Jews were kept as hostages, the plan being to try and trade them with the Allies.
- the death camps such as TII were for short term actions as certain areas were cleared and ghettos closed down.
- there was conflict between the plans to use Jews as labour and to remove them totally from each area.

The vast majority of deniers do not know about, nor understand the complexities and variations in the Nazi plans for the Jews. They think because some Jews survived OK and looked healthy at the end of the war, they must have all been fine.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:05 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:26 am


The more secretive plan that started during the war, as shown by Wannsee, was to use Jews as slave labour until they perished.

The most secret plan, Action Reinhard and hinted at in Wannsee, was to kill those not useful for work.

All prisoners world wide have to work: it was suggested that Jude do not like work but the motto of the NSDAP is work. The interned were put into necessary work for the Reich. Those not useful to work were sent to Bergen Belsen and perhaps elsewhere. It seems clear there was a criminal action at some of the camps which was investigated by Konrad Morgen. SS Commandants were executed as a result of this.
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:31 pm

NSDAP wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:05 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:26 am


The more secretive plan that started during the war, as shown by Wannsee, was to use Jews as slave labour until they perished.

The most secret plan, Action Reinhard and hinted at in Wannsee, was to kill those not useful for work.

All prisoners world wide have to work: it was suggested that Jude do not like work but the motto of the NSDAP is work. The interned were put into necessary work for the Reich. Those not useful to work were sent to Bergen Belsen and perhaps elsewhere. It seems clear there was a criminal action at some of the camps which was investigated by Konrad Morgen. SS Commandants were executed as a result of this.
What a ridiculous post! There were over 10 million Jews in Europe. Only a mere 100s of thousands were utilized for work. Towards the end it might have amounted to about a million. Are you thinking that millions of Jews were sent to Bergen Belsen? :lol:

Jews were confined in ghettos. There's evidence of there having been millions less Jews at the end of the war than at the start of the war. The standard narrative is that millions of Jews were slaughtered. You can't wave that away by saying they "were sent to Bergen Belsen and perhaps elsewhere"! :lol:

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:41 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:31 pm
You can't wave that away by saying they "were sent to Bergen Belsen and perhaps elsewhere"! :lol:
No one is waving anything away. Nessie asked what happened to those not fit to work. Some were sent to BB. Most probably died of disease.
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:40 pm

NSDAP wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:41 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:31 pm
You can't wave that away by saying they "were sent to Bergen Belsen and perhaps elsewhere"! :lol:
No one is waving anything away. Nessie asked what happened to those not fit to work. Some were sent to BB. Most probably died of disease.
No. Nessie gave a general rundown of his understanding of what "the Holocaust" was (in general). But if you want to be specific, over 400,000 Hungarian Jews are claimed to have been sent to Auschwitz in about 2 months. Neither Auschwitz nor Bergen Belsen could accomodate that many Jews. So either the numbers are wrong or obviously that many Jews would've been sent to places other than just A and BB.

And no one can come up with a single Jew who transited through an AR camp to anywhere that could be interpreted as "the Russian East" (per the Korherr Report). Not a single Jew. Nor even a coherent theory about why those camps would even be transit camps at all - based upon the evidence of the train loads of Jews said to have been sent to those camps (from all directions). So, again, either the numbers are wrong or Jews were sent somewhere other than where they were said to have been sent. For the AR camps, pretty much ANY number of Jews is too large a number to have been accommodated. And there is ZERO evidence that such camps were part of any sanitary procedures. Such claims make no sense to begin with; but combine that with there being no evidence at all for those nonsensical claims gives a losing argument.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:52 am

I said that one of the camps had Hungarian quarters, and repeated this over several posts several times. This was not an Einsatz camp, but it does seem that Jews were sent directly to Bergen Belsen at exactly the same date as Jews were alleged to have been gassed at Auschwitz.
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 am

NSDAP wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:52 am
I said that one of the camps had Hungarian quarters, and repeated this over several posts several times. This was not an Einsatz camp, but it does seem that Jews were sent directly to Bergen Belsen at exactly the same date as Jews were alleged to have been gassed at Auschwitz.
Not from what I recall of what you posted. You posted about a relatively small number of Hungarian Jews being sent to BB AFTER the alleged slaughter of the very large number Hungarian Jews sent to AB. There were about 750,000 Hungarian Jews at the beginning of '44 (Jews residing within the '44 borders of Hungary). Over 400,000 are alleged to have been sent to AB - of which about 320,000 are alleged to have been slaughtered in Birkenau gas chambers.
Last edited by blake121666 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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